Infra Red radiators, or........

[Oldshape]

Hi all,
I am converting a house at present. All wiring has been removed, I have a clean slate where I put anything/everything.
To the property there is no (And will not be) gas. Solar panels - not allowed. Air-pumps / Ground pumps - I'd need to dig a mini Somme into English heritage land - not allowed. Oil is possible, but frankly I don't want it (The boiler would need to be outside and the manhole cover "Mushroom" will be very prominent in the garden.
So, I am left with Biomass pellet boiler or 100% Electric. (Unless you can think of some magic?)
The biomass system is appealing in a traditional sort of way. Cheap to run, but the install costs are frankly a p155-take. They know you get approx. £6,000 back on the grant, and that cost is added to their bill in my opinion.
What appeals to me about 100% electric is.....
1) all the gubbins can be in the loft (Two immersion heaters basically - 1 for my 500 litre bath and 1 for the rest of the house). The biomass boiler, although pretty (ish) is as big as an upright freezer, and the only location for it means quite a bendy flu in the loft.
2) No plumbing. Pipes will need to be buried in the 70mm of screed on my concrete floors.
3) Economy of not putting it on in rooms not occupied. Yes you can turn wet rads off, but the boiler still fires up for just 1 wet rad.
4) all wiring can be hidden, each room will have it's own room-stat as the off-on switch.

I was thinking of Economy 7 or economy 10 storage heaters. But, my only experience of these is that by 4pm, the stored heat is gone. This was years ago, they *must* have improved?
But this week my eyes were opened to Infra red rads. High wall mounted or on the ceiling.
I cannot find anything negative about these rads. Well, one post on here from 2014 from a member calling himself (A rude name). So, not a good source of info .

Have you guys got negatives? Anyone got a full house full of them?
I need real reports, not the "Frequently asked questions" of the websites selling the kit.

Oh, and if I do put all electric rads in, IR or E7/E10, they will be on their own ring main, upstairs and down. Simply because I have the space, so why not. If all 12 rads were on, that would be pulling 11kw ish, why add that onto the rest of the ring(s). The CU is a whopper with 20 possible circuits.

Thanks in advance.

 

[davesparks]

The standard ring circuit is not designed to supply fixed loads such as heaters, it is primarily designed to supply relatively large numbers of general use socket outlets cheaply and easily.
Electric heaters would ideally have dedicated circuits per heater or per small group of heaters depending on the exact installation conditions.

Infra red heaters provide a direct kind of heat that you will feel whilst you are directly in front of them, they don't heat the air or the general mass of the room. They are great outdoors for pub smoking areas and that sort of thing where you want people to feel the heat but have no hope of heating the area.
In a house you want to keep the whole house warm, with just infra red heating you will end up with a cold, damp building.

 

[Oldshape]

Well two more rings as planned then.
The other part of your answer is wrong.
The pub smoke things are Near Infra Red. The house ones are Far infra red. And do heat the objects and walls of a room. Within 3 metres.

 

[Andy5678]

a wood burning stove would be good

 

[sparks55]

If your going all electric look at Rointe or haverland rads
Fully controllable even if you want app controlled but why anyone wants to turn on their heating from the train on the way home i can't understand they have built in programmers

 

[richy3333]

Stove with back boiler and wet rads. Storage heaters are still shee-ite. 50/60 year old technology. Dimplex quantums aren't much better. Dimplex customer service in my opinion is poor based on experience. With a heating tariff you will most probably limit the number of energy providers that you can buy your electricity from.

 

[Electric Magic]

I'm going to be fitting these in every room of a top floor city centre flat next month, so, if you're not doing this immediately, PM me at the end of June and I'll give you some feedback from me and the customer. What I would say now though is that according to the manufacturer's instructions they do reach up to 95C, which would not be pleasant if you accidentally touched it, definitely worth thinking about when deciding where to locate them.

 

[The Ghost]

Underfloor heating then?

 

[sean_ork]

ASHP feeding a thermal store, wet UFH - and lots of insulation.

 

[Oldshape]

Mixed answers.... Wood stove. Same flu issues as a biomass.
Thanks, I sort of assumed storage heaters were still rubbish.
Underfloor. Could work downstairs as I've got to put 75mm of selotex down on the concrete. I could sacrifice 25 mm for ufh. Upstairs, no selotex needed on that concrete, but cost of it all is too much. My floor area is 100 sqm up, same downstairs.
Physical burns. Yes, the panels get to a surface temp of 105 ish. But it's all about the energy per sq cm. the panels are low but a kettle is high. Touch a kettle it'll burn you, touch a panel, it won't. Prolonged touch of a few seconds will however burn you. So yes, as I said, they need mounting high on the wall or ceiling. For efficiency and saving.
Timetable. It will be after June, so I will pm you.
Rointe and haverland. Will investigate.
The more I look into 100% electric, the less I am wanting a wet system.
I am also now thinking 4 smaller immersion heaters rather than two big ones. Possibly more efficient? Also, not as much structural load-spreading in the trussed roof.

 

[sean_ork]

You'll need very deep pockets (or a near passive house) if you go all electric - at least with an air source unit you'll benifit from a positive CoP

 

[Midwest]

My son used to live in a brand new 2 bedroom all electric flat, that was insulated up to the latest standards. He only used the electric radiators in his bedroom, and lounge/kitchen. He showered mostly, with the occasional bath. His fuel bill varied between summer and winter, by £75 to £127.

You would also need to consider your supply, if you are going to have 11kw of storage heaters and 4 x immersion heaters.

Until the worlds run out of fossil fuels, or it becomes financially unviable, all electric is never going to be a realistic form heating IMO.

 

[sean_ork]

The only people who advocate all electric heating systems are the manufacturer's and landlords, neither have to pay the bill.

 

[Oldshape]

Supply is not an issue. As stated in o.p.
I will be have normal rungs up n down.
Heating rings up n down.
Kitchen ring. Utility room ring.
Radial for outside sockets and possible garden lights. Radials as required for immersion heaters. Radial for shower in downstairs cloak/wetroom.
Air pump is a consideration, but the wet rads temp is considerably lower than a conventional boiler. Might consider air for the immersion heaters though. Ground pumps is a no, as stated in o.p.

 

[Midwest]

Supply is not an issue. As stated in o.p.

You have a 3 phase supply?

 

[Oldshape]

The insulation will be in excess of latest standards. It counts as a new build, because it is a change of use. So minimum is latest regs.

The all electric apartment, was it infra red panels?

 

[Midwest]

The all electric apartment, was it infra red panels?

Nope convector panels, and air recovery.

 

[sean_ork]

Lower flow temps to rads from a heat pump isn't an issue, you just size the emitters to suit (but I don't see anyone having suggested wet rads) just UFH

"Might consider air for the immersion heaters though"

You'll have to explain that one .....

 

[Oldshape]

Lower flow temps to rads from a heat pump isn't an issue, you just size the emitters to suit (but I don't see anyone having suggested wet rads) just UFH

"Might consider air for the immersion heaters though"

You'll have to explain that one .....

Air....air pump to heat the immersions

 

[Midwest]

You have a 3 phase supply?

??

 

[sean_ork]

Could you outline what your understanding of "the immersions" consist of please ?

Conventionally they are a resistive element immersed within a storage tank of water, which uses electricity as the energy source, to heat the water.

 

[Oldshape]

A quick smoke packet calc indicates that over a 10 year plan (Simple sums no IRR or accountancy stuff), the full electric system will be 36% more expensive than a biomass system. Biomass has very high install costs and annual service. The infra red is purchase and plug in for £2,400. All the wiring can be done at the total wiring of the house anyway, just maybe a couple of days more work.
Not as scary as the initial thoughts of "KEEP AWAY FROM ELECTRIC HEATING YOU FOOL".
For a totally pipe free, maintenance free system, with no boiler on show.
I'm not convinced it's a "No" yet for the Infra reds. I really need somebody that has this actual kit fitted, with true running costs and actual feeling the heat of the kit.

 

[sean_ork]

You'll be waiting a very very very long time to hear from someone who has whole house infra red heating installed.

 

[Midwest]

You have a 3 phase supply?

?????

 

[Oldshape]

Could you outline what your understanding of "the immersions" consist of please ?

Conventionally they are a resistive element immersed within a storage tank of water, which uses electricity as the energy source, to heat the water.

Yes. 300 litre, highly insulated tank of water, heated by an immersed electric element.
In this context, I don't know what else you could have meant?

 

[sean_ork]

That's the thermal store, not "the immersions"

 

[Oldshape]

You have a 3 phase supply?

House is not that big! Unfortunately.
CU is a MK Sentry 21 way, or similar.

 

[Oldshape]

That's the thermal store, not "the immersions"

Store. Indicates an external heating source. My two will have the elements inside. If I have the biomass boiler it will be a store, with electrical back up from the elements
.

 

[Oldshape]

You'll be waiting a very very very long time to hear from someone who has whole house infra red heating installed.

Why, too new?

 

[sean_ork]

lol

good luck with your project.

 

[Oldshape]

lol

good luck with your project.

The ASHP will still need an electric element to heat for DHW, the store will still be immersion. And because we don't really want underfloor heating, the wet rads would also need an electric boost. But even UFH is not a no, yet.

 

[sean_ork]

wet rads, fed from a TS, which is heated via an ASHP will not normally need "an electric boost" provided you have sized the rads correctly, and assuming the house will be insulated far in excess of the currently BR requirements.

"the store will be an immersion" - this just tells me you don't know what a thermal store (in relation to this topic ) is.

 

[Midwest]

House is not that big! Unfortunately.
CU is a MK Sentry 21 way, or similar.

OP, if you are thinking of an all electric property, 11kW of storage heaters, 4 x immersion heaters (your suggestion), electric shower, electric oven and the other sockets & lighting etc, you are going to be very close to the typical 100amp domestic supply, what supply do you have?

 

[Electric Magic]

You'll be waiting a very very very long time to hear from someone who has whole house infra red heating installed.

Not that long, see post 7 - okay okay, it's a flat ;-)

 

[sean_ork]

Lol fair point, is it a rental ?

Any other source of heat ?

 

[Electric Magic]

No, owner occupied. No other sources of heat. Existing panel heaters being replaced. Customer wants them installed on the ceilings, which are all over 3m high. Based on the calculations from the supplier (Herschel in this instance) the power demand is about a third of the amount of the existing panel heaters (which could have been over specified but I haven't bothered trying to work it out).

 

[sean_ork]

Using them in flats seems reasonable, given the limited alternatives.

 

[Oldshape]

OP, if you are thinking of an all electric property, 11kW of storage heaters, 4 x immersion heaters (your suggestion), electric shower, electric oven and the other sockets & lighting etc, you are going to be very close to the typical 100amp domestic supply, what supply do you have?

100 amp, single phase

 

[Midwest]

100 amp, single phase

Then if you are going 'all electric' that's another consideration

 

[Oldshape]

wet rads, fed from a TS, which is heated via an ASHP will not normally need "an electric boost" provided you have sized the rads correctly, and assuming the house will be insulated far in excess of the currently BR requirements.

"the store will be an immersion" - this just tells me you don't know what a thermal store (in relation to this topic ) is.

OK, the librarian level of technical term isn't correct. An immersion heater, to me, is a big cylinder, with both the electrical element in it, and a coil fed from a heating source for heat exchange purposes.
ASHP temps are very low, as you know, so yes, underfloor is one answer, or colossal ugly fat rads. Output temp is 40 degrees. To get it to 65, a sensible temperature for DHW or rads, needs a boost. The CoP plummets due to more electric being used.
I need to find out off the Building regs guy, if the underfloor heating backboard matrix has to be on top of the 75mm selotex or can be subtracted from it. And, if the ASHP fan is noisy, it wouldn't be allowed by English heritage anyway.

And, the prices of the ASHP is a p155 take just like the biomass boilers. Several thousand quid for basically a reverse fridge with a condenser and fan. Again, they know you are getting a CGI grant, so hike up the retail price.

 

[Oldshape]

OP, if you are thinking of an all electric property, 11kW of storage heaters, 4 x immersion heaters (your suggestion), electric shower, electric oven and the other sockets & lighting etc, you are going to be very close to the typical 100amp domestic supply, what supply do you have?

But that arithmetic assumes all of the kit is on at once. Don't say storage heater....already dismissed as junk

 

[gutterball]

have a look at this for infrared heating
http://professional-electrician.com/products/watch-jouletherm-carbo-e-paint/

 

[Midwest]

Errgh??

 

[Oldshape]

Then if you are going 'all electric' that's another consideration

As per OP, I have a blank canvas and exploring all possibilities. Dismissed oil, gas, solar, GSHP.
The non monetary value is also swaying my decisions. Biomass pellets are delivered on a tonne pallet. I have to store these in my house, obviously the order for next tonne will be when I still have say 25% of previous left. That's a lot of storage! Cannot build an external hopper. The infra red panels are very attractive, and out of the way, most of mine would be ceiling mounted.
However, if I go electric and it turns out poo, I will have a very expensive remedy, or leave pipes on show.....like hell that will happen.

 

[sean_ork]

My final comment - the OP seems to be expecting to install a cheap system, expecting it to be cheap to run.

An expensive system to install is only expensive once, an expensive system to run is always going to be expensive.

 

[Oldshape]

have a look at this for infrared heating
Watch: JouleTherm Carbo e-Paint - http://professional-electrician.com/products/watch-jouletherm-carbo-e-paint/

Goddamit! another choice now. Cheers. Wow that looks fabulous. Will call them.

 

[Oldshape]

My final comment - the OP seems to be expecting to install a cheap system, expecting it to be cheap to run.

An expensive system to install is only expensive once, an expensive system to run is always going to be expensive.

Exactly. But, the fear of an expensive to run system "Could" be based on all of our previous experience/baggage. The electric technology is racing forward at present. I'm exploring all available directions.

 

[sean_ork]

The only thing that's racing forward is the cost of energy - good luck.

 

[davesparks]

I'm not sure that electric heating technology is really racing forwards, resistive heating elements are as close as you'll get to a 100% efficient means of converting electrical energy into heat energy.

There are an awful lot of manufacturers claiming to have re-invented this particular wheel at the moment, I don't think any of them really have though!

 

[davesparks]

House is not that big! Unfortunately.
CU is a MK Sentry 21 way, or similar.

Supply is not an issue. As stated in o.p.
I will be have normal rungs up n down.
Heating rings up n down.
Kitchen ring. Utility room ring.
Radial for outside sockets and possible garden lights. Radials as required for immersion heaters. Radial for shower in downstairs cloak/wetroom.
Air pump is a consideration, but the wet rads temp is considerably lower than a conventional boiler. Might consider air for the immersion heaters though. Ground pumps is a no, as stated in o.p.

How can you know what size CU your electrician will fit if you don't even know what heating method you will use and therefore the number of circuits required?

Why are you intent on installing ring circuits for the heating? This is a very poor installation design.