Infra Red radiators, or........

[Oldshape]

lol

good luck with your project.

The ASHP will still need an electric element to heat for DHW, the store will still be immersion. And because we don't really want underfloor heating, the wet rads would also need an electric boost. But even UFH is not a no, yet.

 

[sean_ork]

wet rads, fed from a TS, which is heated via an ASHP will not normally need "an electric boost" provided you have sized the rads correctly, and assuming the house will be insulated far in excess of the currently BR requirements.

"the store will be an immersion" - this just tells me you don't know what a thermal store (in relation to this topic ) is.

 

[Midwest]

House is not that big! Unfortunately.
CU is a MK Sentry 21 way, or similar.

OP, if you are thinking of an all electric property, 11kW of storage heaters, 4 x immersion heaters (your suggestion), electric shower, electric oven and the other sockets & lighting etc, you are going to be very close to the typical 100amp domestic supply, what supply do you have?

 

[Electric Magic]

You'll be waiting a very very very long time to hear from someone who has whole house infra red heating installed.

Not that long, see post 7 - okay okay, it's a flat ;-)

 

[sean_ork]

Lol fair point, is it a rental ?

Any other source of heat ?

 

[Electric Magic]

No, owner occupied. No other sources of heat. Existing panel heaters being replaced. Customer wants them installed on the ceilings, which are all over 3m high. Based on the calculations from the supplier (Herschel in this instance) the power demand is about a third of the amount of the existing panel heaters (which could have been over specified but I haven't bothered trying to work it out).

 

[sean_ork]

Using them in flats seems reasonable, given the limited alternatives.

 

[Oldshape]

OP, if you are thinking of an all electric property, 11kW of storage heaters, 4 x immersion heaters (your suggestion), electric shower, electric oven and the other sockets & lighting etc, you are going to be very close to the typical 100amp domestic supply, what supply do you have?

100 amp, single phase

 

[Midwest]

100 amp, single phase

Then if you are going 'all electric' that's another consideration

 

[Oldshape]

wet rads, fed from a TS, which is heated via an ASHP will not normally need "an electric boost" provided you have sized the rads correctly, and assuming the house will be insulated far in excess of the currently BR requirements.

"the store will be an immersion" - this just tells me you don't know what a thermal store (in relation to this topic ) is.

OK, the librarian level of technical term isn't correct. An immersion heater, to me, is a big cylinder, with both the electrical element in it, and a coil fed from a heating source for heat exchange purposes.
ASHP temps are very low, as you know, so yes, underfloor is one answer, or colossal ugly fat rads. Output temp is 40 degrees. To get it to 65, a sensible temperature for DHW or rads, needs a boost. The CoP plummets due to more electric being used.
I need to find out off the Building regs guy, if the underfloor heating backboard matrix has to be on top of the 75mm selotex or can be subtracted from it. And, if the ASHP fan is noisy, it wouldn't be allowed by English heritage anyway.

And, the prices of the ASHP is a p155 take just like the biomass boilers. Several thousand quid for basically a reverse fridge with a condenser and fan. Again, they know you are getting a CGI grant, so hike up the retail price.

 

[Oldshape]

OP, if you are thinking of an all electric property, 11kW of storage heaters, 4 x immersion heaters (your suggestion), electric shower, electric oven and the other sockets & lighting etc, you are going to be very close to the typical 100amp domestic supply, what supply do you have?

But that arithmetic assumes all of the kit is on at once. Don't say storage heater....already dismissed as junk

 

[gutterball]

have a look at this for infrared heating
http://professional-electrician.com/products/watch-jouletherm-carbo-e-paint/

 

[Midwest]

Errgh??

 

[Oldshape]

Then if you are going 'all electric' that's another consideration

As per OP, I have a blank canvas and exploring all possibilities. Dismissed oil, gas, solar, GSHP.
The non monetary value is also swaying my decisions. Biomass pellets are delivered on a tonne pallet. I have to store these in my house, obviously the order for next tonne will be when I still have say 25% of previous left. That's a lot of storage! Cannot build an external hopper. The infra red panels are very attractive, and out of the way, most of mine would be ceiling mounted.
However, if I go electric and it turns out poo, I will have a very expensive remedy, or leave pipes on show.....like hell that will happen.

 

[sean_ork]

My final comment - the OP seems to be expecting to install a cheap system, expecting it to be cheap to run.

An expensive system to install is only expensive once, an expensive system to run is always going to be expensive.

 

[Oldshape]

have a look at this for infrared heating
Watch: JouleTherm Carbo e-Paint - http://professional-electrician.com/products/watch-jouletherm-carbo-e-paint/

Goddamit! another choice now. Cheers. Wow that looks fabulous. Will call them.

 

[Oldshape]

My final comment - the OP seems to be expecting to install a cheap system, expecting it to be cheap to run.

An expensive system to install is only expensive once, an expensive system to run is always going to be expensive.

Exactly. But, the fear of an expensive to run system "Could" be based on all of our previous experience/baggage. The electric technology is racing forward at present. I'm exploring all available directions.

 

[sean_ork]

The only thing that's racing forward is the cost of energy - good luck.

 

[davesparks]

I'm not sure that electric heating technology is really racing forwards, resistive heating elements are as close as you'll get to a 100% efficient means of converting electrical energy into heat energy.

There are an awful lot of manufacturers claiming to have re-invented this particular wheel at the moment, I don't think any of them really have though!

 

[davesparks]

House is not that big! Unfortunately.
CU is a MK Sentry 21 way, or similar.

Supply is not an issue. As stated in o.p.
I will be have normal rungs up n down.
Heating rings up n down.
Kitchen ring. Utility room ring.
Radial for outside sockets and possible garden lights. Radials as required for immersion heaters. Radial for shower in downstairs cloak/wetroom.
Air pump is a consideration, but the wet rads temp is considerably lower than a conventional boiler. Might consider air for the immersion heaters though. Ground pumps is a no, as stated in o.p.

How can you know what size CU your electrician will fit if you don't even know what heating method you will use and therefore the number of circuits required?

Why are you intent on installing ring circuits for the heating? This is a very poor installation design.

 

[sean_ork]

I suspect this is just a wind up.

 

[Midwest]

have a look at this for infrared heating
Watch: JouleTherm Carbo e-Paint - http://professional-electrician.com/products/watch-jouletherm-carbo-e-paint/

I suspect this is just a wind up.

I always thought that advert was

 

[mattg4321]

How can you know what size CU your electrician will fit if you don't even know what heating method you will use and therefore the number of circuits required?

Why are you intent on installing ring circuits for the heating? This is a very poor installation design.

I expect he's already bought it!

 

[Oldshape]

I expect he's already bought it!

How can you know what size CU your electrician will fit if you don't even know what heating method you will use and therefore the number of circuits required?

Why are you intent on installing ring circuits for the heating? This is a very poor installation design.

The electric heating idea has only come along in the past month.
If I do go that way, why would it be a bad idea to have a separate ring? Such a load of 11kw, for several hours, on a circuit using other stuff too? Surely safer on its own ring?
Remember, there is no wiring at present, the previous wiring is ripped out, and it was all in the wrong place anyway. Nothing is chased out. The cables will be in conduit along the floor then hidden by the selotex/boards/laminate, upstairs the conduit will be chased out of the 70mm of screed on the concrete floor. I can have as many circuits as feasible, allowing for future expansion. The only extra cost is the pennies for cabling and the extra RCBO (Or whatever as necessary) in the CU. Sparky will be wanting 7-8k for the job, adding the odd £50 is nothing.
The price difference between a 11 way and 21 way CU is also lost in the noise.

 

[Oldshape]

I'm not sure that electric heating technology is really racing forwards, resistive heating elements are as close as you'll get to a 100% efficient means of converting electrical energy into heat energy.

There are an awful lot of manufacturers claiming to have re-invented this particular wheel at the moment, I don't think any of them really have though!

Hence, as per my OP........I need real reports, not the "Frequently asked questions" of the websites selling the kit.

 

[Oldshape]

I expect he's already bought it!

I had three CU's in my shed, all now illegal and binned.
I will be getting the MK 21 way. It leaves room for expansion. The location of it is a brick built cupboard 1 metre wide so that isn't an issue either.

 

[Midwest]

The electric heating idea has only come along in the past month.
If I do go that way, why would it be a bad idea to have a separate ring? Such a load of 11kw, for several hours, on a circuit using other stuff too? Surely safer on its own ring?
QUOTE]

A ring final circuit has been designed for socket outlets, not fixed appliances like your proposed heaters. It is not intend to connect such loads, and appendix 15 BS7671 recommends loads of over 2 kW, should have their own dedicated radial circuit.

A ring final circuit has been designed for socket outlets, not fixed appliances like your proposed heaters. It is not intend to connect such loads, and appendix 15 BS7671 recommends loads of over 2 kW, should have their own dedicated radial circuit

 

[Oldshape]

A ring final circuit has been designed for socket outlets, not fixed appliances like your proposed heaters. It is not intend to connect such loads, and appendix 15 BS7671 recommends loads of over 2 kW, should have their own dedicated radial circuit

It's good to know my logic thinking is in alignment with the law. Cheers.

 

[Oldshape]

The only thing that's racing forward is the cost of energy - good luck.

True, and I would also be 100% reliant on a single source of energy, which is not a good plan.

 

[davesparks]

The electric heating idea has only come along in the past month.
If I do go that way, why would it be a bad idea to have a separate ring? Such a load of 11kw, for several hours, on a circuit using other stuff too? Surely safer on its own ring?
Remember, there is no wiring at present, the previous wiring is ripped out, and it was all in the wrong place anyway. Nothing is chased out. The cables will be in conduit along the floor then hidden by the selotex/boards/laminate, upstairs the conduit will be chased out of the 70mm of screed on the concrete floor. I can have as many circuits as feasible, allowing for future expansion. The only extra cost is the pennies for cabling and the extra RCBO (Or whatever as necessary) in the CU. Sparky will be wanting 7-8k for the job, adding the odd £50 is nothing.
The price difference between a 11 way and 21 way CU is also lost in the noise.

A better design is to have a radial circuit for each heater, or each small logical group of heaters, e.g. Bedroom and associated ensuite on one circuit. The ring circuit was not designed for supplying fixed heavy long duration loads such as heaters, the advantages of a ring over radial circuit are lost when it supplies only fixed loads.
Individual circuits also result in much less disruption under fault conditions and can allow for simpler control wiring or more options for fixed overall control.