Infra Red radiators, or........

[sean_ork]

I suspect this is just a wind up.

 

[Midwest]

have a look at this for infrared heating
Watch: JouleTherm Carbo e-Paint - http://professional-electrician.com/products/watch-jouletherm-carbo-e-paint/

I suspect this is just a wind up.

I always thought that advert was

 

[mattg4321]

How can you know what size CU your electrician will fit if you don't even know what heating method you will use and therefore the number of circuits required?

Why are you intent on installing ring circuits for the heating? This is a very poor installation design.

I expect he's already bought it!

 

[Oldshape]

I expect he's already bought it!

How can you know what size CU your electrician will fit if you don't even know what heating method you will use and therefore the number of circuits required?

Why are you intent on installing ring circuits for the heating? This is a very poor installation design.

The electric heating idea has only come along in the past month.
If I do go that way, why would it be a bad idea to have a separate ring? Such a load of 11kw, for several hours, on a circuit using other stuff too? Surely safer on its own ring?
Remember, there is no wiring at present, the previous wiring is ripped out, and it was all in the wrong place anyway. Nothing is chased out. The cables will be in conduit along the floor then hidden by the selotex/boards/laminate, upstairs the conduit will be chased out of the 70mm of screed on the concrete floor. I can have as many circuits as feasible, allowing for future expansion. The only extra cost is the pennies for cabling and the extra RCBO (Or whatever as necessary) in the CU. Sparky will be wanting 7-8k for the job, adding the odd £50 is nothing.
The price difference between a 11 way and 21 way CU is also lost in the noise.

 

[Oldshape]

I'm not sure that electric heating technology is really racing forwards, resistive heating elements are as close as you'll get to a 100% efficient means of converting electrical energy into heat energy.

There are an awful lot of manufacturers claiming to have re-invented this particular wheel at the moment, I don't think any of them really have though!

Hence, as per my OP........I need real reports, not the "Frequently asked questions" of the websites selling the kit.

 

[Oldshape]

I expect he's already bought it!

I had three CU's in my shed, all now illegal and binned.
I will be getting the MK 21 way. It leaves room for expansion. The location of it is a brick built cupboard 1 metre wide so that isn't an issue either.

 

[Midwest]

The electric heating idea has only come along in the past month.
If I do go that way, why would it be a bad idea to have a separate ring? Such a load of 11kw, for several hours, on a circuit using other stuff too? Surely safer on its own ring?
QUOTE]

A ring final circuit has been designed for socket outlets, not fixed appliances like your proposed heaters. It is not intend to connect such loads, and appendix 15 BS7671 recommends loads of over 2 kW, should have their own dedicated radial circuit.

A ring final circuit has been designed for socket outlets, not fixed appliances like your proposed heaters. It is not intend to connect such loads, and appendix 15 BS7671 recommends loads of over 2 kW, should have their own dedicated radial circuit

 

[Oldshape]

A ring final circuit has been designed for socket outlets, not fixed appliances like your proposed heaters. It is not intend to connect such loads, and appendix 15 BS7671 recommends loads of over 2 kW, should have their own dedicated radial circuit

It's good to know my logic thinking is in alignment with the law. Cheers.

 

[Oldshape]

The only thing that's racing forward is the cost of energy - good luck.

True, and I would also be 100% reliant on a single source of energy, which is not a good plan.

 

[davesparks]

The electric heating idea has only come along in the past month.
If I do go that way, why would it be a bad idea to have a separate ring? Such a load of 11kw, for several hours, on a circuit using other stuff too? Surely safer on its own ring?
Remember, there is no wiring at present, the previous wiring is ripped out, and it was all in the wrong place anyway. Nothing is chased out. The cables will be in conduit along the floor then hidden by the selotex/boards/laminate, upstairs the conduit will be chased out of the 70mm of screed on the concrete floor. I can have as many circuits as feasible, allowing for future expansion. The only extra cost is the pennies for cabling and the extra RCBO (Or whatever as necessary) in the CU. Sparky will be wanting 7-8k for the job, adding the odd £50 is nothing.
The price difference between a 11 way and 21 way CU is also lost in the noise.

A better design is to have a radial circuit for each heater, or each small logical group of heaters, e.g. Bedroom and associated ensuite on one circuit. The ring circuit was not designed for supplying fixed heavy long duration loads such as heaters, the advantages of a ring over radial circuit are lost when it supplies only fixed loads.
Individual circuits also result in much less disruption under fault conditions and can allow for simpler control wiring or more options for fixed overall control.

 

[davesparks]

It's good to know my logic thinking is in alignment with the law. Cheers.

No it isn't, as pointed out in the post you quoted here the recommendation is for dedicated individual circuits, not a ring circuit.

 

[Oldshape]

No it isn't, as pointed out in the post you quoted here the recommendation is for dedicated individual circuits, not a ring circuit.

Yes. Read it.
In the context of not having them on the main socket rings I mean.
Never even considered groups of radials though. I'll need to do some sums. Furthest room from CU will be 18 metres of cable and that was planned to have a 600w heater. Grouping that with the next room, which was planned 400w. Ideally next room also, with another 400w.

 

[davesparks]

Yes. Read it.
In the context of not having them on the main socket rings I mean.
Never even considered groups of radials though. I'll need to do some sums. Furthest room from CU will be 18 metres of cable and that was planned to have a 600w heater. Grouping that with the next room, which was planned 400w. Ideally next room also, with another 400w.

Well that is why you pay an electrician to design and construct the installation!
That's a very precise cable length for a job that hasn't even started yet, are you certain of the cable routes that will be used?

 

[mattg4321]

I would suggest you let the sparks worry about cable sizing/routing/loading and how many circuits you'll need. Unless...

 

[Oldshape]

Well that is why you pay an electrician to design and construct the installation!
That's a very precise cable length for a job that hasn't even started yet, are you certain of the cable routes that will be used?

I was going to do all the marking out and chasing out for the runs. So it's all measured. (I'm not now, sparky has better tools and will be faster). I had to plan the cable runs to avoid the plumbing runs for the wet system. But now the plumbing runs "May" not be needed. Although, I really need 1st hand reports from users of Far Infra red Rads., because although I'm sure that they feel fantastic when you are in direct line of sight of them, any obstruction will absorb the heat. So, for a ceiling mounted Rad, I will be toast up top, but my feet, under the table would be cold. That makes them c r a p. The blurb from the seller claims that the objects that are heated then warm the air. I'm not convinced on that. And how hot do the objects get, at 1 metre to 3 metres away?
Looks like I might have to wait for feedback from the user mentioned above. Unfortunately user is having them fitted in June so July would give a few weeks "Live" experience...............in summer, when they are not needed...... thus not really tested when somebody opens the front door for more than 3 seconds in December!
TBH, I wanted to embrace new technology, for its convenience and appearance, but it looks like I will be stuck with a biomass boiler the size of Africa in the Kitchen, and ugly fat wet rads. Possibly lose the downstairs rads to UFH, if I can sacrifice 1 inch off the 75mm insulation.

 

[static zap]

Do ..

You have a 3 phase supply?

... cos we cooked a 100A single phase pretty quicky (at an old workplace) , without using the Antique gas heater.
Day time hot air/radiant/panel , minimal hot water requirement !

 

[Oldshape]

Hi guys. This issue hasn't gone away. I've moved off the Infra Red into modern convection.........I have done a nerdy level spreadsheet of Kwh usage for an electrically heated house. I reckon (3 bed semi, latest regulation insulated walls/ loft, concrete ceiling to downstairs) that the heating will be best case 11,000 kwh per year and worst case 15,000 kwh per year. The rest of the electric (From previous bills of a house where only the HW/CH was gas) are adding 6,800 kwh per year. At 15p per kwh this is giving me £236 - £282 range per month for electric.
The Bio Mass boiler option for CH and HW, plus the "Ordinary" electric works out at about £210 per month. So, it appears to be a no brainer.
But.
Biomas boiler including all Rads/Stores fitting is £14,000. The Boiler is about £5,000 which will beed replacing after 10 years, even though I've assumed £250 per year maintenance.
Electric rads purchase and 2 thermal stores and fitting (At same time as the house is wired (It has zero wiring now) is £4,600.
CGI grant available on Biomass, equates to about £5,000 over 7 years. This grant has already been cut back twice....I'm not holding my breath that it will stay good 7 years with *any* government scheme. However, the extra £9,000 of the biomass is borrowing on a mortgage. I don't need to use mortgage if it was all electric.
No gurt big boiler in my kitchen. No wet rads and plumbing. No flu.

Over a 10 year plan, the differences are lost in the noise in my opinion. But everybody says Electric heating is crap. I'm not seeing this....what am I doing wrong?
See summary spreadsheet file attached.
To remind you Gas is 100% impossible, Oil is possible but I need to bury / bund the tank in garden. Outlay was more than the bio mass.
Air pumped UFCH is possible, but one of *her* family has it, and they are sorry it was done, and wifey agrees having been there.

 

[Wilko]

Hi - I thought an oil fired boiler, bunded tank, rads and pipes etc would be substantially less capital than £14k you've been quoted for biomass ?

 

[Oldshape]

Hi - I thought an oil fired boiler, bunded tank, rads and pipes etc would be substantially less capital than £14k you've been quoted for biomass ?

Quoted for a 2500 litre tank, 100% buried (Apart from that butt-ugly mushroom), bunded, encased in concrete etc. 12 rads, boiler, 2 thermal stores in loft....was £16k. Not much more, but more. Boiler was the ugly outside style though, I think they are more expensive than internal types due to waterproofing. Dunno, we've dismissed oil due to all the fecking about with it. And, as most of the nation needs electric, the prices will stay "Balanced". Whereas oil will increase more. Pellets will probably increase too, because why should market forces give a flying feck for a few thousand homes with pellets/oil. If you see my drift.

 

[Wilko]

Burying an oil tank is a costly undertaking to be sure, but you can cut a lot off this if you are prepared to have the tank above ground as they are typically £1500 or so. Did they break down their quote at all?

 

[Oldshape]

Impossible above ground. Listed Grade 1 next door. All land covered by relating covenants.
The quote was not one outfit. Misleading in my narrative. I got 4 quotes for tank and delivery, groundworks and bunding, plumbing, and the two certificates of safety.
Plus, we dismissed it anyway. The garden is actually small, gurt big mushroom in it (Nah) and the vent plume from boiler will be near our seating area, both garden and bedroom verandah.