Is my boiler wired right?

[littlespark]

my 2 cents before the fallout....

Green and yellow is a cpc.... circuit protective conductor.... it protects the circuit.
Heating controls, youve got unarmoured flexible cables crossing between joint boxes and valves, or thermostats or whatever....
Something happens and this flex gets struck with a pointy metal object. metal objects now shorting between a live cable and what should be a cpc...
Nothing happens. Circuit breaker doesnt trip, metal object now live.

Would you use the cpc as a live cable in a lighting circuit? Plastic switch, plastic box? No, i dont think so.

Using the cpc as a live cable in heating controls should never be allowed... identified or not. And it just reeks of a plumber wiring it up, not a competent electrician.

 

[oscar21]

my 2 cents before the fallout....

Green and yellow is a cpc.... circuit protective conductor.... it protects the circuit.
Heating controls, youve got unarmoured flexible cables crossing between joint boxes and valves, or thermostats or whatever....
Something happens and this flex gets struck with a pointy metal object. metal objects now shorting between a live cable and what should be a cpc...
Nothing happens. Circuit breaker doesnt trip, metal object now live.

Would you use the cpc as a live cable in a lighting circuit? Plastic switch, plastic box? No, i dont think so.

Using the cpc as a live cable in heating controls should never be allowed... identified or not. And it just reeks of a plumber wiring it up, not a competent electrician.

If it had never been allowed I could understand the reasoning but not that long ago you could do exactly that, so if its as dangerous as you say why was it ever allowed. As for your scenario it could just as easily happen to the brown or blue wire in the cable, we sleeve blue wires up all the time with brown cable, we sleeve black with brown and grey with blue, all sorts of colour changes going on there but the copper and insulation thickness are exactly the same physics wise, the only difference is the colour of the covering, if someone is going to get a shock after something goes wrong, the angry pixies dont care one bit what colour a cable originally is.

 

[oscar21]

Also my original point wasn't whether we can use the cpc as a live or not it was about the tonnes of regs changes that are happening all the time and unless you are a bookworm or enjoy watching nerds on youtube with receding hairlines quoting hours and hours of regs in a monotonous voice instead of being down the pub or out for a drive or something then most of them will pass you by until you chance upon them by accident.

Alternatively you could pay a hundreds if not thousands every year for every update course going, I believe they have courses for every part of the building regs nowadays. After all whats the point in doing the electrical regs to the letter if you haven't got a clue about the other 15 parts of the buildings regs.

 

[rewireIT]

^ some good points but i look at it like what would Barry Homeowner do?

I know people aren't supposed to look inside their appliances or circuits, but they do. What happens when the boiler trips out and they take the cover off and see yellow and green and just assume it's earth?

It takes no extra effort and simply putting in 5core in my boiler situation to ensure this doesn't happen. Even if it's a 1 in a million chance of someone not getting injured by it it's worth the extra 50p for the right cable, no?

 

[DPG]

Also my original point wasn't whether we can use the cpc as a live or not it was about the tonnes of regs changes that are happening all the time and unless you are a bookworm or enjoy watching nerds on youtube with receding hairlines quoting hours and hours of regs in a monotonous voice instead of being down the pub or out for a drive or something then most of them will pass you by until you chance upon them by accident.

Alternatively you could pay a hundreds if not thousands every year for every update course going, I believe they have courses for every part of the building regs nowadays. After all whats the point in doing the electrical regs to the letter if you haven't got a clue about the other 15 parts of the buildings regs.

All you need to do is read the updates/amendments when they come out. If you can't put that bit of effort in then it's a poor show.

And how does it cost thousands of pounds every year?

 

[oscar21]

All you need to do is read the updates/amendments when they come out. If you can't put that bit of effort in then it's a poor show.

And how does it cost thousands of pounds every year?

Like I said, if you are only concerned with following the electrical regs then a bit of reading would probably do it, but what about all the other countless regs you may breach whilst doing it, has anyone read the entire documents on ventilation, sound, energy conservation etc when fitting a 100mm fan in a bathroom, you 3 core&E might have sleeving but what about the other gazillion regs there are whilst doing so, its a pretty futile pursuit of exactness.

 

[rewireIT]

Like I said, if you are only concerned with following the electrical regs then a bit of reading would probably do it, but what about all the other countless regs you may breach whilst doing it, has anyone read the entire documents on ventilation, sound, energy conservation etc when fitting a 100mm fan in a bathroom, you 3 core&E might have sleeving but what about the other gazillion regs there are whilst doing so, its a pretty futile pursuit of exactness.

But using the correct colours is the bare minimum basics, no?

 

[Avo Mk8]

a pretty futile pursuit of exactness.

Sounds like my career! I'm glad you didn't decide to become a dentist, surgeon, watchmaker, or accountant

 

[DPG]

Sounds like my career! I'm glad you didn't decide to become a dentist, surgeon, watchmaker, or accountant

As long as you don't murder or kill anyone it's ok

 

[timhoward]

@oscar21 it's simple. The last big amendment (AM2) cost around £80 to buy.
For the same price (£80) I could go to a trade show, meet some other sparks, visit a few stands, watch a few seminars that outline the most significant changes, and the price included a copy of the regs. So I got the book I would need anyway plus free training. And if that isn't enough I get a bacon and egg breakfast roll thrown in. The real cost was travel to the nearest roadshow (Manchester in my case) and a morning of my time.

If that is too much work there is also a FREE playlist on youtube explaining the changes:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLVsHvs2SuqmqMoXZCFp_CYTgZH_Y2ywwk

The reality of life is that nothing stands still, we learn more, we become aware of regs that are confusing or being misinterpreted, our use of electricity evolves, so the rules keeping people safe have to change too.

( There's just been a very minor housekeeping update to AM2 which can be obtained free online and can be read in 5 minutes:
Updates to 18th Edition - BS7671- IET Wiring Regulations - https://tinyurl.com/ys2u4uuh )

 

[oscar21]

@oscar21 it's simple. The last big amendment (AM2) cost around £80 to buy.
For the same price (£80) I could go to a trade show, meet some other sparks, visit a few stands, watch a few seminars that outline the most significant changes, and the price included a copy of the regs. So I got the book I would need anyway plus free training. And if that isn't enough I get a bacon and egg breakfast roll thrown in. The real cost was travel to the nearest roadshow (Manchester in my case) and a morning of my time.

If that is too much work there is also a FREE playlist on youtube explaining the changes:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLVsHvs2SuqmqMoXZCFp_CYTgZH_Y2ywwk

The reality of life is that nothing stands still, we learn more, we become aware of regs that are confusing or being misinterpreted, our use of electricity evolves, so the rules keeping people safe have to change too.

( There's just been a very minor housekeeping update to AM2 which can be obtained free online and can be read in 5 minutes:
Updates to 18th Edition - BS7671- IET Wiring Regulations - https://tinyurl.com/ys2u4uuh )

That's great but its all in a perfect world, most people have busy lives, families, they might even be doing second jobs in the evening like amazon deliveries to support an ex wife or something, who in the real world has time to sit down and watch 3 or 4 hours or some bod droning on and on, even if you did watch it I doubt much would sink in if the kids are constantly nagging you. Its much easier to find out stuff as and when like I have just done via this forum about the earth. Or alternatively you can devote your life to learning about electrical regs and then you will have all the time in the world because the wife and kids will do one.

Take today, my business partner hasn't showed up this morning, probably booze related so I'm not doing nothing, there are about 20 bin bags outside that need to go to the tip so I can carry on building my extension, why would I watch youtube when there is stuff like that to be done. (yes I'm posting on the internet but I've only popped back in for a coffee)

 

[DPG]

That's great but its all in a perfect world, most people have busy lives, families, they might even be doing second jobs in the evening like amazon deliveries to support an ex wife or something, who in the real world has time to sit down and watch 3 or 4 hours or some bod droning on and on, even if you did watch it I doubt much would sink in if the kids are constantly nagging you. Its much easier to find out stuff as and when like I have just done via this forum about the earth. Or alternatively you can devote your life to learning about electrical regs and then you will have all the time in the world because the wife and kids will do one.

Take today, my business partner hasn't showed up this morning, probably booze related so I'm not doing nothing, there are about 20 bin bags outside that need to go to the tip so I can carry on building my extension, why would I watch youtube when there is stuff like that to be done. (yes I'm posting on the internet but I've only popped back in for a coffee)

Having a business partner with drink problems or not having time due to a second job are not excuses for keeping up to date.

You don't need to devote your entire life to it, but you owe it to your customers to do a little bit of CPD every now and again to keep up to date.

 

[rewireIT]

That's great but its all in a perfect world, most people have busy lives, families, they might even be doing second jobs in the evening like amazon deliveries to support an ex wife or something, who in the real world has time to sit down and watch 3 or 4 hours or some bod droning on and on, even if you did watch it I doubt much would sink in if the kids are constantly nagging you. Its much easier to find out stuff as and when like I have just done via this forum about the earth. Or alternatively you can devote your life to learning about electrical regs and then you will have all the time in the world because the wife and kids will do one.

Take today, my business partner hasn't showed up this morning, probably booze related so I'm not doing nothing, there are about 20 bin bags outside that need to go to the tip so I can carry on building my extension, why would I watch youtube when there is stuff like that to be done. (yes I'm posting on the internet but I've only popped back in for a coffee)

So basically your M.O is 'unless someone else tells me about it i'll keep doing it however i think is right'?

Seems a bit shoddy mate, you could watch that 4 hour video over the course of 2 weeks, couple of minutes here and there.

'I don't work to current regs unless someone just so happens to offhand tell me the rules one at a time' seems like a very poor attitude to have. It would take relatively little effort to do it right.

Taken to its extremes it's like someone saying they still wire each individual light off an individual circuit because that's how we did it in the 60's and it worked then so why would i change.

 

[mainline]

If you do electrical work then it should be compliant simple.

 

[oscar21]

If you do electrical work then it should be compliant simple.

Well I have just completed a house re-wire, RCBO's, surge protection, all cables run in zones, decent sockets and switches, all properly terminated, bonding done, no tight bends on cables. As far as I'm concerned everything was done to the current regs and it is deemed so safe that it wont hurt anyone or damage their property in any way shape or form. To get injured or burn their house down it will have to be some sort of stupidity on the customers part.

Lets say in 12 months time they bring in a reg for compulsory AFDD's and I don't know about it for a couple of months so I do another re-wire to the exact same standards as the one above. Is it now unsafe, could the installation injure someone or damage their property? If the answer is yes then it must mean the first re-wire is also unsafe, but how can that be if it was classed as safe a few months before. If its now classed as dangerous then it should be mandated that every house in the country is retrofitted with these devices as soon as possible, just like the smoke alarms in Scotland, after all if it saves just one life

Somebody writing something in a book can't possibly change something from safe to unsafe, its just impossible. And if it is still safe then what does it matter, no-one else is interested apart from you if you do every little thing to the letter. I can understand when its a technical breakthrough like RCD's etc, they saved lives undoubtedly but I personally don't think any new regulation not yet dreamed up can make our electrical installations any safer than what they are today, they are just tinkering with things now for tinkerings sake.

 

[brianmoooore]

Lets say in 12 months time they bring in a reg for compulsory AFDD's and I don't know about it for a couple of months so I do another re-wire to the exact same standards as the one above. Is it now unsafe, could the installation injure someone or damage their property? If the answer is yes then it must mean the first re-wire is also unsafe, but how can that be if it was classed as safe a few months before. If its now classed as dangerous then it should be mandated that every house in the country is retrofitted with these devices as soon as possible, just like the smoke alarms in Scotland, after all if it saves just one life

If I was conducting an EICR on either property, after AFDDs (no apostrophe, BTW) had been mandated, then the lack of them would attract a C3 code, improvement recommended. I will have passed my recommendation onto the person ordering the EICR, and my responsibility will have been fulfilled.
If both these properties subsequently burnt to the ground, and an investigation found that the lack of AFDDs was to blame, you will be free of blame for the first property, but if it is found that you signed off the second property as compliant, after they were mandated, then start looking for a good lawyer.

 

[DPG]

Well I have just completed a house re-wire, RCBO's, surge protection, all cables run in zones, decent sockets and switches, all properly terminated, bonding done, no tight bends on cables. As far as I'm concerned everything was done to the current regs and it is deemed so safe that it wont hurt anyone or damage their property in any way shape or form. To get injured or burn their house down it will have to be some sort of stupidity on the customers part.

Lets say in 12 months time they bring in a reg for compulsory AFDD's and I don't know about it for a couple of months so I do another re-wire to the exact same standards as the one above. Is it now unsafe, could the installation injure someone or damage their property? If the answer is yes then it must mean the first re-wire is also unsafe, but how can that be if it was classed as safe a few months before. If its now classed as dangerous then it should be mandated that every house in the country is retrofitted with these devices as soon as possible, just like the smoke alarms in Scotland, after all if it saves just one life

Somebody writing something in a book can't possibly change something from safe to unsafe, its just impossible. And if it is still safe then what does it matter, no-one else is interested apart from you if you do every little thing to the letter. I can understand when its a technical breakthrough like RCD's etc, they saved lives undoubtedly but I personally don't think any new regulation not yet dreamed up can make our electrical installations any safer than what they are today, they are just tinkering with things now for tinkerings sake.

Luckily it's not down to whether you personally think a reg is important or not

 

[timhoward]

If the answer is yes then it must mean the first re-wire is also unsafe, but how can that be if it was classed as safe a few months before.

The book of words itself make it pretty clear that this is not the case: Page 239:

We install to the regs making reasonable effort to stay up to date.
We test and inspect against the current regs. Our EICR reports indicate whether we think it is safe. If so, "satisfactory".

 

[loz2754]

There are things we did not know before, at the time the previous installation was installed, that actually were unsafe but we didn't know it.
Just like we didn't know about mesothelioma when we were banging in perfectly safe asbestos containing materials left right and centre.
And we're not just talking about absolutes, like not leaving bare live parts for anyone to touch, but there are degrees of safety that can improve from one period to the next, both with the invention of new products, and the discovery of new dangers.
And if we don't keep up to date we could be installing something that's no longer considered safe (or the safety could be improved), even though we used to think it was.

 

[rewireIT]

As far as I'm concerned everything was done to the current regs

How do you know, if you don't keep up to date with the regs?

 

[littlespark]

Wondered why the black and red T&E was so expensive.??

 

[oscar21]

How do you know, if you don't keep up to date with the regs?

Well you see, the big changes are talked about everywhere, like when metal CU's came out, I got emails, memos of STROMA (At the time), wholesalers had leaflets about it, everyone in on-line forums and at work mentioned it because it was important and a big change. I've not seen the reg about cpc as a live until the other day, because guess what - it isn't deemed important enough to talk about, just like the daft 2.5M socket from a bath scenario. Google how far a socket should be from a bath and even the electrical safety type sites still say 3M because guess what, they haven't read the book from cover to cover either.

 

[oscar21]

There are things we did not know before, at the time the previous installation was installed, that actually were unsafe but we didn't know it.
Just like we didn't know about mesothelioma when we were banging in perfectly safe asbestos containing materials left right and centre.
And we're not just talking about absolutes, like not leaving bare live parts for anyone to touch, but there are degrees of safety that can improve from one period to the next, both with the invention of new products, and the discovery of new dangers.
And if we don't keep up to date we could be installing something that's no longer considered safe (or the safety could be improved), even though we used to think it was.

That's theoretical though. I did a brief look on the ONS site and it seems 2 or 3 people are killed by electricity each year in a UK home. 20 or 30 years ago it was 10 times that amount, this despite way more homes and way more electric points being fitted everywhere. And I'll bet 99% of those few deaths were caused by stupidity. I reckon electrics are just about as safe now as they will ever be save lowering the voltage considerably which will never happen.

 

[oscar21]

Luckily it's not down to whether you personally think a reg is important or not

Some of these replies by electricians reminded me so much of this.

 

[nicebutdim]

Well you see, the big changes are talked about everywhere, like when metal CU's came out, I got emails, memos of STROMA (At the time), wholesalers had leaflets about it, everyone in on-line forums and at work mentioned it because it was important and a big change. I've not seen the reg about cpc as a live until the other day, because guess what - it isn't deemed important enough to talk about, just like the daft 2.5M socket from a bath scenario. Google how far a socket should be from a bath and even the electrical safety type sites still say 3M because guess what, they haven't read the book from cover to cover either.

Might be worth checking when such information was posted. Not much point in trying to keep up to date from sources that are out of date. Ultimately there is one reliable source for this information and it costs money to access - everything else may contain misleading information.

 

[DefyG]

they haven't read the book from cover to cover either.

Who has?
It’s a reference book to which to refer to attain the ‘latest’ guidance on various aspects of electrical installations, not all of will apply to all installations so no need read all of it just the specific points required.
Relying on info (including you tube) as suggested in post #62 is like playing with ‘Chinese Whispers’ - misleading/contradictory/out of date!!