No Earth to Kitchen Ceiling Light

[Dzzi]

Morning Forum,

I have just moved house. The kitchen has/had a single ceiling light fitting circular metal plate secured with screws x 3 to the ceiling and finished of with glass dome secured with three decorative nuts. This provided by

I bought a new light fitting (from Argos yes i know but im short and time and money) It's a 6 spot flexible bar affair with 6x50w GU10's

I isolated the lights (flipped breaker) and when i took the old light down i was suprised to find no Earth, just Live and Neutral (Blue/Brown)
. The cables were covered in a removable white insulating sheth of about 3-4mm in diameter and these came around the side of a wooden beam.

Given the old light was down i decided to fit the new light, which i've done ensuring that the stripped L/N ends are fully inserted into the connector block on the new light fitting and i've also cut the white insulating stuff to provide what i assume was intended to be additional insulation by whoever did the initial install.

The new light works and i've checked that the metal body of the light fitting is not live. To my uneducated (electrically) mind iv'e not made the situation any worse than the one i've inhereited

My questions and are...

1) What would you chaps have done if faced with this situation
2) Can/Should i fit and earth (i have my eye on the wooden beam) but this may just be a stupid idea ?
3) What concerns should i have about this ?
4) What can i do about it now.

Thanks in Advance

Dave

 

[telectrix]

methinks that someone has snipped the cpc when connecting the fitting. if your T/E cables are red/black, then it looks like there,s a joint above the fitting and there you'll likely find the cpc/s. joint out properly with wagos in an enclosure, including the cpc's.

 

[Dzzi]

The Cables that were visable (and i did give them a little bit of a pull but they didnt want to budge much) were Brown and Blue... i Understand what you've suggested, it sounds like i would have to remove some of the ceiling to investigate further ?

 

[Heisenberg]

In relation to item 3 on your list...

If the Line conductor works its way loose, through whatever reason, vibration etc, and ends up touching the metal casing, the only way you will find out is when you come to change any lamps. It will then be, literally speaking, 'lights out' for whoever is the unlucky person.

No CPC, or Earth as you would say, then no metal fittings. Plain and simple.

 

[eganelectrical]

Or floorboards up! Check the other lights in the house to see what they have!!

 

[telectrix]

cut a hole in the ceiling that's big enough to get your hand in but not too big so as the new fitting won't cover it. but make sure you isolate the circuit at the CU, it's no good just turning off at the light switch as you may well still have 240V there.

 

[Dzzi]

Ok Gents thanks, The original fitting had a large metal plate that would be exposed when changing the bulb, so im now a little concerened that the original installer may not have been top notch !

i think im going to check a few others and then take the floor boards up in the bedroom above Kitchen and see what's gone on.

 

[telectrix]

bet you'll find a JB or a choc block under the floor close to where the light is.

 

[Dzzi]

I do hope so thanks again Chaps

 

[Patto]

A friend of mine came to me at work the other day asking a similar question, he has filled the upstairs and downstairs of his newly built extension with 230v down lights from argos all metal fronts.. his question was there are no earths (cpc's) on any of them does this seem right to you? To which I replied no... change them and buy some proper lights. He said balls to that theres loads of them and im not paying twice lol.... :-S

 

[telectrix]

if GU10 downlighters have no terminal for cpc, then they are classII and perfectly OK.

 

[Patto]

Ah I see, so what is to happen if a line conducter touches the fitting in this case then? Im still at college so lots to learn.

 

[Dzzi]

Just for info these particular ones do have a terminal for the cpc or what i call earth ;-)

 

[Heisenberg]

if GU10 downlighters have no terminal for cpc, then they are classII and perfectly OK.

Either that, or they're just really cheap carp from E54 land.

 

[wildgoose]

Staying on a similar theme.

ESC Best Practice Guide No1: "Replacing A Consumer Unit In A Domestic Property Where Lighting Circuits Have No Earth"

A very useful guide to read beforehand. Available free via (www.esc.org.uk)

 

[Dzzi]

Re: No Earth to Kitchen Ceiling Light - update and picture

Chaps,

Ok so a quick update as you've all been so helpful, I took the carpet up and one of the floor boards was already cut and actually not fixed in so i remove it and as you suspected there is a JB. At this point i turned of the supply to the entire house. When i removed the cover i took some photos which i have attached.
The Blue and Brown go to the light fitting, There is a Red and black cable that has a third wire, you can see this if you look closely. I assume this could be a viable cpc/earth ?
However having had time to look at the MCB there is a yellow warning sticker stating that metal fittings should not be fitted, clearly i didnt bloody read this when i bought the new fitting !
Ok so ive put the cover back on now and im going to call a qualified spark in to take a look for me.

Do you think (given the warning label) that the third wire is actually ia viable earth i assume not or it would have been wired up in the first place ?
So in terms of sorting this out would i be looking at

1) Fitting a non metal or double insulated light fitting
2) Some sort of partial re-wire ?
3) Retro fitting of a viable earth/cpc in someway

Thanks again for your advice i appreciate your concerns giving non qualified people advice and i have taken all your words of caution very seriously.

Oh and if you happen to know a good spark in or around Billericay/Wickford/Chelmsford etc that would great.

Thanks

Dave

 

[partypest]

I expect there's a CPC up there, but for a long time, earths weren't always included in lighting circuits. So, finding a CPC under the floor doesn't mean it goes back to the earth terminal at the distribution board. You've done the right thing asking on here, and you've done the next correct thing which is to involve an electrician. Thousands of people out there buy fittings from B&Q and the like and muddle through fitting them and then feel vindicated when it works. Little do they know, they have just fitted a time bomb on their ceiling. A little knowledge can be a very dangerous thing, and I see the evidence time and again. You are obviously smarter than the average bear and may have saved your own or somebody else's life. I have no issue with DIYers, I don't mind helping for the cost of a drink, better that than brown bread.

 

[RyanCheetham]

The best solution would be a rewire of the lighting circuit, however this is guess work without seeing the installation. A seperate CPC can be run alongside existing wiring however the cost and disruption incurred you may as well just rewire. Or just leave the install alone and fit class 2 everything. IF you did go for a rewire there will be other factors for consideration i.e the incorporation of RCD protection and satisfactory bonding, meter tails may need upgrading and then there is all the making good after potential chasing for cables (you may be lucky and the wiring is in conduit already)

 

[Toby Kuhnert]

That's great that you're looking to get an electrician in. Just because theres a CPC visible doesn't mean it's connected or suitable. The sparks can determine that within a couple of minutes with the right tools/experience. As RyanCheetham has said there are several other factors that need to be looked at ie. bonding etc.
Hope this helps

 

[Dzzi]

Thanks Gents, i've actually got a Sparc coming round to install the correct feed for an electric shower in the bathroom, so i may call him and ask if he can take a look while he is here.

 

[drewman]

Ah I see, so what is to happen if a line conducter touches the fitting in this case then? Im still at college so lots to learn.

The accessory in this case is insulated in such a way that no metal part can become live in the event of a fault - it's all double insulated which is what class II is

 

[Patto]

I see, thanks for that pal..