Replacement Bathroom Fan - Advice appreciated

[LeBlur]

Hi All,

Please be gentle. It's my first post.

I want to replace a nearly 20 year old, but now noisy, Greenwood Airvac R90 bathroom extractor fan that is ceiling mounted almost directly above an over-bath shower (see attached photo). I am getting somewhat bogged down by all the regulations/restrictions so would greatly appreciate some advice on this.

The bathroom measures (w x l x h) 2.38m x 2.1m x 2.49m. This is, roughly, 12.45 cu. metres. The floor of the bath to the ceiling, where the fan is mounted, measures 2.31metres. The fan exhausts via around 2 metres of flexible 100mm ducting in the loft to a vertical through-the-roof vent.

As the ceiling height is above 2.25m, am I correct to say that the fan is outside zones 0 and 1 in the regulations? If so, are there any restrictions I need to be aware of when replacing the fan?

The Greenwood Airvac RF90 (rated IP44, 31 l/s) looks to be almost a like for like replacement. Would this, therefore, be a non-notifiable change?

Would it be a suitable fan in this position?

Even if it is a non-notifiable change would I still need some certification from a ‘suitably qualified electrician’?

The present R90 fan just operates via the humidistat. If I wanted to add a pull-chord switch so that the new RF90 fan could also be manually turned on, when desired, would this extra change then make it ‘notifiable’?

Other fans I am considering are (all these are continuously running fans with a boost) :
Greenwood Airvac CV2GIP – IP24 8 l/s boost
Vent Axia Lo-Carbon Centra 442955 – IP44 15 l/s boost
Vent Axia Lo-Carbon Centra 443176 – SELV IPX7 15 l/s boost

Are any of these more suitable?
Although, I presume, they all would likely be a ‘Notifiable’ change at they're not strictly like for like?

I am open to other recommendations as well.

I do plan to get a qualified electrician in to do the electrical work done. I just want to be able to choose the replacement fan first (and probably physically fit it) and know what is officially required from the electrician.

Many thanks.

 

[amlu]

stick a vent in the place of old fan and an in-line fan somewhere in the loft. good on the regulations, quieter, works better.

 

[telectrix]

a like for like replacement just needs to be similar fan. does not have to be the same make/model. as such, no paperwork is required. adding a pull cord would be modifying the circuit and a minor works certificate completed by a competent person. strictly speaking this would be notifiable and a RCD fitted if not already in situ for the circuit.

 

[LeBlur]

Many thanks for your prompt responses, amlu and telectrix. They are appreciated.

Can you confirm that, as far as the regulations are concerned, that the fan is outside zones 0 and 1, as this will affect the fans that I can select?

As the shower head is not fixed does this have any relevance to the regulations and zones?

Could you also clarify what 'similar fan' would actually mean, in this context? Are all the alternative fans I suggested 'similar'. This sounds like it could be a little subjective, where some could argue they are similar but others don't agree.

Many thanks again.

 

[telectrix]

any 4" fan that's suitable for the location will do. if it's above 2.25m from floor level, it's outside of zones. IP44 rating is what you should look for on the box. have a look at manrose and acel ( elec. center own brand ) for budget fans. make sure any fan you buy is suitable for ceiling mount. some are wall mount only.

 

[overskilled]

Xpelair DX100H Axial Bathroom Extractor Fan with Humidistat & Timer | Screwfix.com

Thats another to consider, if there isn't a ceiling mounting kit with it, xpelair do make one for this fan..its also IPX5....so should survive if someone thinks spraying it directly with the shower head is a brilliant idea

 

[kingeri]

You seem overly concerned with what is notifiable and what isn't. If, as you say, you are getting a spark in to do the job, then he or she will be able to take care of that side of things for you. Just choose wisely, don't get Bob from the pub to do it!

 

[LeBlur]

Many thanks for all the responses to date. They have all been useful.

I suppose I do “seem overly concerned with what is notifiable and what isn't” but, at the end of the day, as the homeowner, I am ultimately responsible and, as the authorities would argue, “ignorance is no excuse”.

Around 5 years ago I had a local, recommended, ‘suitably qualified’ electrician replace the old, fuse-wire style fuse box. When I asked him for some certification, following completion of the work, he was adamant that this was not necessary and certification would only be required for this when I sold the house.

I was never 100% sure on this but his was the ‘expert’ knowledge I was relying on. Whilst looking into the replacement fan I have seen posts that state that a new fuse box is definitely notifiable with certification required. But, is this relevant to a replacement fuse box as opposed to a completely new fuse box? I still don’t know for sure or where this leaves me. This may help explain my ‘over concern’ at understanding exactly what is required for the bathroom fan.

Many thanks

 

[telectrix]

for the fuse board replacement, you should have received an Electrical Installation Certificate, and it is notifiable. as for the bathroom, as long as you are not altering a circuit, notification is not required.

 

[LeBlur]

for the fuse board replacement, you should have received an Electrical Installation Certificate, and it is notifiable. as for the bathroom, as long as you are not altering a circuit, notification is not required.

So, going slightly off track now, where does this leave me with the fuse box?

5 years on......The local, recommended, ‘suitably qualified’ electrician has now left the area. Some posts have stated that it is ‘illegal’ for someone to certify someone else’s work. There may also be some implications on my home insurance, as the work is not certified?

Am I starting to worry for nothing?

 

[telectrix]

you could have a EICR done. this is a test /inspection of the whole installation. any prospective buyer should be satisfied with that. nearest similatity is it's likew a MOT on your car. cost is around £150 -£200. several members in leeds area i'm sure would do you a good deal.

 

[LeBlur]

you could have a EICR done. this is a test /inspection of the whole installation. any prospective buyer should be satisfied with that. nearest similatity is it's likew a MOT on your car. cost is around £150 -£200. several members in leeds area i'm sure would do you a good deal.

Many thanks telectrix.

The EICR must be the test certification the electrician was talking about for when I came to sell my house.

As I’m not planning to sell my house in the foreseeable future are there any other options to overcome the issues with the non-notified/certificated fuse box? I’m presuming this cannot be post-dated 5 years.

 

[telectrix]

all you can do is to get a EICR done. as for notification, after 5 years, i don't think it's worth the hassle.

 

[HandySparks]

stick a vent in the place of old fan and an in-line fan somewhere in the loft. good on the regulations, quieter, works better.

If you go for an in-line fan in the loft, since the old fan is bigger than a typical purpose made grille, you could take the guts out of the old fan, leaving the enclosure with duct spigot on the top as the 'grille'. Saves messing about making a new grille look neat on the ceiling.

 

[LeBlur]

If you go for an in-line fan in the loft, since the old fan is bigger than a typical purpose made grille, you could take the guts out of the old fan, leaving the enclosure with duct spigot on the top as the 'grille'. Saves messing about making a new grille look neat on the ceiling.

That's a very handy tip, HandySparks. I like it.

 

[LeBlur]

a like for like replacement just needs to be similar fan. does not have to be the same make/model. as such, no paperwork is required. adding a pull cord would be modifying the circuit and a minor works certificate completed by a competent person. strictly speaking this would be notifiable and a RCD fitted if not already in situ for the circuit.

So, (almost got my head around all this) if I went with the Greenwood Airvac RF90, just using the inbuilt humidistat (as is now), the fan could just be swapped over and job done. No notification required. No paperwork required. Not even an
Electrical Installation Certificate?

If I added a pull cord, for manual control as desired, then notification and certification required. Also an RCD would need to be fitted.
As the fan looks like it is presently fed via a fused link into the lighting circuit in the loft, will a new feed down to the fuse box be needed for this?

Looking at the suggested in-line fan up in the loft option….this would either need control from the bathroom light switch or from another pull cord, or even a separate humidistat unit. As all these options would be ‘modifying the circuit’ I presume they would require notification/certification?

 

[telectrix]

yes on most points. to get round running cable from fuse board, a RCD FCU could be fitted to the bathroom lighting and fan.

 

[nickblake]

Have a look at Envirovent these are cracking fans very quiet one thing you should take into consideration is the manufacturers instructions most now require the fans to be fuses down

 

[LeBlur]

yes on most points. to get round running cable from fuse board, a RCD FCU could be fitted to the bathroom lighting and fan.

I found a forum discussing RCD FCUs in a proposed job. I must admit a lot of the jargon went over my head but there did seem to be a lot of opposing views on the subject. IET Forums - Is this an acceptable way of complying with the 17th edition?

 

[LeBlur]

Have a look at Envirovent these are cracking fans very quiet one thing you should take into consideration is the manufacturers instructions most now require the fans to be fuses down

These fans look very impressive. I will certainly consider these.

I’m not sure I understand the phrase “to be fuses down”.

 

[telectrix]

he meant fused down , to 3A from the lighting which is generally 6A.

 

[LeBlur]

he meant fused down , to 3A from the lighting which is generally 6A.

Many thanks for the clarification. The existing fan feed is already fused at 3amp so is ok with this.

 

[LeBlur]

I’m now looking at two particular fans in earnest:

Greenwood Airvac RF90 (with humidistat) - Centrifugal, IP44, 21 l/s, 20 watts, 41dBA @ 3m, 2 year warranty.

Envirovent Silent 100 Design (with humidistat) – Axial, IP45, 22 l/s, 8 watts, 26.5dBA @ 3m, 5 year warranty.

The Envirovent fan appears to win on most factors, although centrifugal does appear to win more votes than axial for pushing/pulling air. The one thing I do like about the Greenwood fan is that it has an easily cleanable filter in the front. Anyone with 3 females in their house will probably know what a mess talcum powder can make of a fan and ducting :teeth_smile:

Any views on these two fans?

Many thanks for all the help on the electrical side of things. It has all been a great help and really appreciated.

 

[LeBlur]

One thing I have noticed today is that the wiring diagram for the original Greenwood Airvac fan stated that there should be a ‘double pole isolating switch’.

The only thing in circuit for this fan is the 3amp fuse in the loft.

As the circuit will therefore be changing, it looks like I am going to have to go down notifiable/certification route anyway as this will need to be in place for the new fan.

Are there any stipulations on where the ‘double pole isolating switch’ should be located, or could this be in the loft next to the 3 amp fuse (not very handy)?

I’m also having second thoughts on the two fans I’ve suggested, as this video seems to show the poor performance of the ‘flat front cover’ fans.
Silent Fan with High Air Extraction Power - the "Fan Power" Challenge by EnviroVent - YouTube
This has surprised me as the video is actually by Envirovent and they do a flat front cover axial fan – one of the ones I chose.