Replacing Fuse Board

[EagerApprentice]

Hello All.
When replacing a fuse board, what is the procedure for cutting or accessing the terminals via the Electricity supplier seal or lock?
Thanks in advance
EA

 

[Darkwood]

Welcome to the forum Eager

- This is a bit of a sticky subject, you are not legally allowed to access the meter or cutout regardless whether the seals are in place or not having said that some area's do allow a notification scheme where the Electrician would cut the seals and fit temp' ones then report to the supplier ..(Maybe Scotland not sure?)

If this scheme is not in your area then the correct method would be to contact the DNO and arrange for them to disconnect and then reconnect to your new board...PS this is expensive though, probably >£200 for them to unscrew 2 cables and then fit them back after.

I would also have a look at existing threads on this matter to get a good idea where you stand and get a overall view, try not to act on the comments of one post that suits your needs without knowing the big picture.

 

[Pete999]

Hello All.
When replacing a fuse board, what is the procedure for cutting or accessing the terminals via the Electricity supplier seal or lock?
Thanks in advance
EA

I take it the DNO has not supplied an Isolator between the meter and the CU you are looking to change?

 

[Paul.M]

Same frame of mind with Pete on these matters.

Ask the DNO to fir an Iso switch or to change the smart meter to the newer model with the built in Iso switch/screw on the secondary side. I've only seen a hand full of these but what a great idea for us lot, the designer should be nominated for the Noble Peace Prize! Simple design that makes a big difference to the safety of electricians.

 

[HappyHippyDad]

Hello Eager...

As darkwood has said the correct way to do it is to contact the DNO as only they have the authority to remove it, although in fact anyone they 'authorise' can remove it (537.1.3).

When I first became registered I used a CU change for my first assessment. I contacted the DNO and got them to fit an isolator (this was free although some DNO's charge), I then carried out the CU change.

In practice I think many electricians will remove the cut out fuse themselves but I feel it could be dangerous to make it seem like this is the 'norm'. Some Cut out fuses are very dangerous (metal clad cutouts - IET Forums - Cut Out Fuse?).

Like Darkwood said, read the many other threads on this subject and then form your own decision.

 

[EagerApprentice]

Thank you all for your response, which has helped me immensely.
EA

 

[shanky887614]

mastic nosels im not saying any more or i will get moaned at

 

[valleybilly]

Humm, Got a smart meter fitted awhile back n the meter guy gave us lodsa seals/main fuses to use lol

 

[davesparks]

Humm, Got a smart meter fitted awhile back n the meter guy gave us lodsa seals/main fuses to use lol

Did he give you the correct training and ppe to be able to safely remove and refit those fuses to go with it?

 

[valleybilly]

If u mean did he follow the correct procedures then no. He was a de-skilled 1 day trained monkey boy .

 

[davesparks]

If u mean did he follow the correct procedures then no. He was a de-skilled 1 day trained monkey boy .

No I mean did he give you the ppe and training when he have you the fuses and seals

 

[Sparkie30]

He was a de-skilled 1 day trained monkey boy .

Did you stop him changing the meter?

 

[Delboybully]

Lots of sparks turn of the CU to remove the load and pull the bullet. Off course there is never any seals. You can buy seals from ebay (not the DNO type), do the meter readers ever check the type of seal? or even worry if there is no seal, no off course not, they dont care.

My first job for my assessment was a board change at a friends home. I had pulled the bullet and was working on the CU and the meter man turned up. I was slightly worried to say the least. So I told him what I was doing and he said 'carry on, you are a sparks so we dont care'

Some will have a go at me for this but just pull the fuse and get the job done!!!

 

[7029 dave]

Did you stop him changing the meter?

Should of got me.

 

[Delboybully]

Some will have a go at me for this but just pull the fuse and get the job done!!!

Forgot to say, dont do this if it is an old cutout

 

[HappyHippyDad]

Lots of sparks turn of the CU to remove the load and pull the bullet. Off course there is never any seals. You can buy seals from ebay (not the DNO type), do the meter readers ever check the type of seal? or even worry if there is no seal, no off course not, they dont care.

My first job for my assessment was a board change at a friends home. I had pulled the bullet and was working on the CU and the meter man turned up. I was slightly worried to say the least. So I told him what I was doing and he said 'carry on, you are a sparks so we dont care'

Some will have a go at me for this but just pull the fuse and get the job done!!!

Forgot to say, dont do this if it is an old cutout

Delboy, we all know that most electricians pull the fuses, however you know what you are doing and have probably done it many times hence it becomes second nature to you. The OP, having asked this question, shows that he has never done this before so I dont think he should 'just pull it'. He should learn what an 'old cut out' looks like (perhaps the one he is intending to pull is one), he should read up on the dangers involved, he should read up about any protective equipment he should use (some may laugh but I always put my 1000V gloves on when I partake), he should learn the correct procedure... and then, maybe, partake.

Also... Once the fuse is pulled a big, gaping (live) hole is left, quite possibly outside the house for the general public to access whilst we go inside to change the CU. If the OP is going to pull the fuse then he needs to know how to make this safe, and not just popping a bit of tape over it or even forgetting about it.

It is frustrating that only the DNO is tecnically allowed to pull the fuse as this stops their being proper instruction around electricians pulling it.

 

[shanky887614]

Delboy, we all know that most electricians pull the fuses, however you know what you are doing and have probably done it many times hence it becomes second nature to you. The OP, having asked this question, shows that he has never done this before so I dont think he should 'just pull it'. He should learn what an 'old cut out' looks like (perhaps the one he is intending to pull is one), he should read up on the dangers involved, he should read up about any protective equipment he should use (some may laugh but I always put my 1000V gloves on when I partake), he should learn the correct procedure... and then, maybe, partake.

Also... Once the fuse is pulled a big, gaping (live) hole is left, quite possibly outside the house for the general public to access whilst we go inside to change the CU. If the OP is going to pull the fuse then he needs to know how to make this safe, and not just popping a bit of tape over it or even forgetting about it.

It is frustrating that only the DNO is tecnically allowed to pull the fuse as this stops their being proper instruction around electricians pulling it.

? take the fuse out of the carrier and pop the carrier back inplace, no one will put there fingers in then.

if you really want to you can put a seal on the empty carrier while you work inside, i was working with a guy before that didnt realise you could remove the fuse from the carrier!!!

 

[HappyHippyDad]

]? take the fuse out of the carrier and pop the carrier back inplace[/B], no one will put there fingers in then.

if you really want to you can put a seal on the empty carrier while you work inside, i was working with a guy before that didnt realise you could remove the fuse from the carrier!!!

I know that Shanky! That wasn't the point, the OP doesn't know, he's an 'eager apprentice', impressionable, wanting to please and inexperienced. Just don't think he should jump straight in.

 

[shanky887614]

I know that Shanky! That wasn't the point, the OP doesn't know, he's an 'eager apprentice', impressionable, wanting to please and inexperienced. Just don't think he should jump straight in.

true, like you say it shouldn't be pulled unless you know how to do it safely.

some idiots ive worked with will just pull it with stuff still on inside!!! i make sure there is no load on it if it is safe to remove, its not always safe for example cast iron ones are dangerous and old dc meter heads.


if you really do want to pull it get your mentor to makesure its safe and gives you permission once all ppe is there and its safe to remove

 

[Taylortwocities]

Need to be wearng this PPE

Not sure if the fleece jacket is correct though..!

Also I spy an isolator already fitted, and he's going to pull the fuse with the isolator ( and the load-presumably) still switched on:shocked3:

 

[Stu1312]

Get yourself a pair of lv gloves if you're going to pull the fuse I've had a fuse holder fall to bits in my hand when being pulled. Also if your worried about blanking off while the fuse is pulled get some shrouds cheap as chips to keep in the box: Insulated Shrouds | Insulated Tools Ltd

 

[shanky887614]

Get yourself a pair of lv gloves if you're going to pull the fuse I've had a fuse holder fall to bits in my hand when being pulled. Also if your worried about blanking off while the fuse is pulled get some shrouds cheap as chips to keep in the box: Insulated Shrouds | Insulated Tools Ltd

do you wear eye protection as well, screen i meen

 

[Stu1312]

Also have my safety specs on but that's habit after having a piece of plastic dug out of my eye when I was an apprentice! Don't use the full face visor unless it's a metal clad then I've also got a pair of leather over gauntlets and fireproof overalls as well as you don't want to be in front of one of those when it goes wrong!!

 

[shanky887614]

Also have my safety specs on but that's habit after having a piece of plastic dug out of my eye when I was an apprentice! Don't use the full face visor unless it's a metal clad then I've also got a pair of leather over gauntlets and fireproof overalls as well as you don't want to be in front of one of those when it goes wrong!!

to be honest the only ones ill personally remove are from newbuilds in good condition with the main board isolated so no load on it

 

[elliot123]

how do those shrouds work can't quite work it out from the picture of them? never seen them before

 

[Pete999]

Need to be wearng this PPE

Not sure if the fleece jacket is correct though..!

Also I spy an isolator already fitted, and he's going to pull the fuse with the isolator ( and the load-presumably) still switched on:shocked3:

Switch the Isolator to OFF lock off fit warning sign, no need to pull the fuse in this situation is there?

 

[7029 dave]

Think he is changing meter Pete.

 

[Pete999]

Think he is changing meter Pete.

Right OK thanks

 

[markc123]

some idiots ive worked with will just pull it with stuff still on inside!!!

Yeah no thanks ... unless your missus is pulling it, then double the load.

 

[Midwest]

DNO SSE allow electricians (who are registered with a scheme) to remove their cut-out fuse and supply temporary numbered seals to reseal with afterwards, when the work is completed. The seals have details of the installer, who has to contact SSE with property details and seal number(s).

 

[Selfmade]

Without meaning to imply or encourage anything, I would be interested to know what is the act of parliament that makes it illegal to pull a cutout? The Electricity at Work Act 1989 quite rightly makes it illegal under most circumstances to work live.

I think it is downright dangerous that electricians are told not to touch the DNO's equipment. What if the electrician suspects the tails have become loose at the meter during the installation of a new CU? Most will not open the meter to check/tighten them, and some will be too scared to contact the DNO in case of being fined for having pulled the cutout! So then what happens if the meter goes up in smoke as a result?! If one can't name a statute making it illegal to carry out the essential safety check them I doubt 'the DNO says I'm not allowed' would be much of a defense!

It's about time we all got together and told the suppliers, DNOs etc that their filthy profits don't come before safety!

 

[Paul.M]

Without meaning to imply or encourage anything, I would be interested to know what is the act of parliament that makes it illegal to pull a cutout? The Electricity at Work Act 1989 quite rightly makes it illegal under most circumstances to work live.

I think it is downright dangerous that electricians are told not to touch the DNO's equipment. What if the electrician suspects the tails have become loose at the meter during the installation of a new CU? Most will not open the meter to check/tighten them, and some will be too scared to contact the DNO in case of being fined for having pulled the cutout! So then what happens if the meter goes up in smoke as a result?! If one can't name a statute making it illegal to carry out the essential safety check them I doubt 'the DNO says I'm not allowed' would be much of a defense!

It's about time we all got together and told the suppliers, DNOs etc that their filthy profits don't come before safety!

^^^^ I like this chap ^^^^

No electrician has ever been prosecuted in a court of law for cutting/removing a seal to a bullet aka tempering with their equipment. Only bypassing the meter etc.

If your competent and have the correct equipment to pull the bullet, just pull the bloody thing and work safe. The DNO's really need to address this issue for the everyday Sparks like us. Something needs to be put in place nationally, ok with training and a licence at a minimal cost to us. It is an issue that needs to be resolved.

 

[Darkwood]

If there is a greater hazard to property or life leaving the fuse in then you should wear appropriate PPE and remove the fuse then call the DNO emergency line explaining why you removed the fuse.

You have to be very careful here though as some older cutouts are so dangerous that even the DNO will not touch them until they have been de-energised upstream... I have only needed to pull the fuse once in such circumstances which was water leaking through a main isolator 3 phase and it was arcing on the tail side - they had no issue with my actions.
If your reasons are lame in there eyes then you could end up with a hefty callout fee from them although I not known any that have taken anyone to court I do know a few sparks who have been charged for DNO attendance.

99% of the time you are not allowed to cut the seals or remove the fuse as this isn't the consumers property and is the property of the DNO and to do so is a criminal act.

I know the frustrations we all have with this set up but thems the rules and to cut any seal is vandalism unless you have special permission by the DNO to carry out such an act.

What actually happens in reality is another story but just expressing how it is from a legal stance.

 

[Selfmade]

First of all I absolutely agree with everything that has been said here regarding safety.

No electrician has ever been prosecuted in a court of law for cutting/removing a seal to a bullet aka tempering with their equipment.

Makes me wonder why not though...

99% of the time you are not allowed to cut the seals or remove the fuse as this isn't the consumers property and is the property of the DNO and to do so is a criminal act.

I know the frustrations we all have with this set up but thems the rules and to cut any seal is vandalism unless you have special permission by the DNO to carry out such an act.

But is it though? I'm not trying to get at anyone at all but I just think people are a bit too inclined to believe anyone appearing to be an authority figure without question: let's recap; we have:

- no specific act of parliament relating to this (I couldn't find one when a trawled the internet a while ago, and nobody has yet come up with one on this thread

- no legal precedent (not one single prosecution according to Paul.M and others I have read)

- thousands of people pulling cutouts up and down the country for decades and either never being reported (e.g. by the DNOs), or the reports not being acted on by the police/crown prosecution/procurator fiscal, which doesn't say much for those bodies confidence that such a case would be successful

- stickers on equipment up and down the country stating that it's an offense to 'tamper'.

I think I might start putting stickers on the CUs I fit stating that it is an offense for anyone else to carry out maintenance/alterations or to use the CU to isolate circuits for maintenance etc. Would that an offense make it, I wonder?

Afterthought: If person A fixes his/her property to person B's property, and person B then has to temporarily remove person A's property in order to carry out essential maintenance to his/her own property, I wonder if that is vandalism...

 

[shanky887614]

First of all I absolutely agree with everything that has been said here regarding safety.



Makes me wonder why not though...



But is it though? I'm not trying to get at anyone at all but I just think people are a bit too inclined to believe anyone appearing to be an authority figure without question: let's recap; we have:

- no specific act of parliament relating to this (I couldn't find one when a trawled the internet a while ago, and nobody has yet come up with one on this thread

- no legal precedent (not one single prosecution according to Paul.M and others I have read)

- thousands of people pulling cutouts up and down the country for decades and either never being reported (e.g. by the DNOs), or the reports not being acted on by the police/crown prosecution/procurator fiscal, which doesn't say much for those bodies confidence that such a case would be successful

- stickers on equipment up and down the country stating that it's an offense to 'tamper'.

I think I might start putting stickers on the CUs I fit stating that it is an offense for anyone else to carry out maintenance/alterations or to use the CU to isolate circuits for maintenance etc. Would that an offense make it, I wonder?

put a void if removed sticker on the lid that voids your warrenty if broken XD

 

[Selfmade]

put a void if removed sticker on the lid that voids your warrenty if broken XD

That's a good idea! Although I think the law has been clarified that a warrantee cannot be voided in this way - only if the third party work actually caused the failure that led to the warrantee claim, can the claim be refused on these grounds. That's my understanding anyway.

 

[amlu]

no one keeps any records of seals and stickers. when DNO/meter man comes for some reason he will look for usual signs of dodgy meter bypass, if none found he will put new seals in place. most of the jobs i have been to, the seal fairy was there before and there was nothing to cut anyway.

 

[Selfmade]

no one keeps any records of seals and stickers. when DNO/meter man comes for some reason he will look for usual signs of dodgy meter bypass, if none found he will put new seals in place. most of the jobs i have been to, the seal fairy was there before and there was nothing to cut anyway.

Yup same here: often decades worth of dust on them and no seal in sight.

 

[R G]

What seal ?..

I didn't see any..

 

[amlu]

cute seals. leave them alone

 

[Darkwood]

First of all I absolutely agree with everything that has been said here regarding safety.



Makes me wonder why not though...



But is it though? I'm not trying to get at anyone at all but I just think people are a bit too inclined to believe anyone appearing to be an authority figure without question: let's recap; we have:

- no specific act of parliament relating to this (I couldn't find one when a trawled the internet a while ago, and nobody has yet come up with one on this thread

Lets look at it from a different perspective.. someone elses property and you break the security seals to gain access

- no legal precedent (not one single prosecution according to Paul.M and others I have read)
This argument has been going for several decades, long before the internet and to add to that, its a very hard case to prove from the DNO's point of view, all the accused needs to say is the seals were already cut- having said that the new generation of smart meters log power failures and now consumers may be made to account for loss of power to a meter if no network fault was reported - any householder put to question with fear of action will happily dob in the electrician who swapped the board to protect their own interests.

- thousands of people pulling cutouts up and down the country for decades and either never being reported (e.g. by the DNOs), or the reports not being acted on by the police/crown prosecution/procurator fiscal, which doesn't say much for those bodies confidence that such a case would be successful

- stickers on equipment up and down the country stating that it's an offense to 'tamper'.

I think I might start putting stickers on the CUs I fit stating that it is an offense for anyone else to carry out maintenance/alterations or to use the CU to isolate circuits for maintenance etc. Would that an offense make it, I wonder?

Now your getting silly.. the CU is the property of the consumer or landlord etc who has every right to use anyone to service, make additions to,test, or replace at request.

Afterthought: If person A fixes his/her property to person B's property, and person B then has to temporarily remove person A's property in order to carry out essential maintenance to his/her own property, I wonder if that is vandalism...

Your taking a specific action I.E. cutting seals on the DNO's property and trying to apply the argument to everyday situations, that is not in anyway a comparison.
At the end of the day tampering with the DNO's service equipment is a criminal offense and this is regardless of the strength of past evidence of prosecutions etc.. we all sympathise an we have all made the same argument at some point through the sheer stupidity of the situe' but it is how it is and from a legal perspective you are not allowed to tamper, remove seals, pull fuse of the DNO's equipment without their authorisation.

 

[Midwest]

As I posted before, SSE are just one DNO who have a constructive policy on the procedure for removing their main fuse. I suspect there are other DNO's who have a similar policy (I know there are some that do not). I think some electricians are too shy to ask, expecting to be told no. Why not ring you local depot and ask?

As regards a national policy, I remember reading in a recent scheme periodical, that this issue is back on the menu, again.

 

[Stu1312]

Having worked on the metering side of this for a good few years I see everyone's point and I agree that there needs to be a process in place to allow electricians to pull fuses. But this needs to done with correct ppe, don't just assume that it's only the old cut outs that will do you some damage. I'll dig out the photo I've got at a flash over on a 100amp 3 phase cut out that looked brand new.

If you doing it do it safely, get some LV gloves and some shrouds and if it's a cut out your not sure is safe don't pull the fuse.

 

[7029 dave]

Cheap are these seals.

 

[Selfmade]

Your taking a specific action I.E. cutting seals on the DNO's property and trying to apply the argument to everyday situations, that is not in anyway a comparison.
At the end of the day tampering with the DNO's service equipment is a criminal offense and this is regardless of the strength of past evidence of prosecutions etc.. we all sympathise an we have all made the same argument at some point through the sheer stupidity of the situe' but it is how it is and from a legal perspective you are not allowed to tamper, remove seals, pull fuse of the DNO's equipment without their authorisation.

I'm afraid I still don't agree. We still have no act of parliament and no legal precedent so all that remains is to compare it to other actions we see as similar. You see it as similar to breaking into someone else's property (I hope that's a fair interpretation), I see it as similar to a situation where a person willingly leaves his/her property inside someone else's, knowing that it will have to be moved/removed etc to allow future maintenance. I don't see any evidence that it's a criminal offense or even grounds for a civil case, and I don't think repeatedly saying it is makes it so.

As for my comment about putting stickers on CUs prohibiting others from working on them - yes it was silly, it was meant to be, lol. It was just meant to demonstrate that the existence of a sticker stating that something is criminal does not in itself make it criminal!

I'm not meaning to get at you or anyone else on here. I just think the industry as a whole is being too ready to sit back and take the blame here. I actually think it's pretty disgraceful for large organizations (the DNOs) to accuse en-mass an entire industry of routine criminal action without being prepared to take action accordingly.

I'm probably not gonna write any more on this, for the time being anyway; I've had my little rant lol and will let other people make up their own minds!

 

[davesparks]

I'm afraid I still don't agree. We still have no act of parliament and no legal precedent so all that remains is to compare it to other actions we see as similar. You see it as similar to breaking into someone else's property (I hope that's a fair interpretation), I see it as similar to a situation where a person willingly leaves his/her property inside someone else's, knowing that it will have to be moved/removed etc to allow future maintenance. I don't see any evidence that it's a criminal offense or even grounds for a civil case, and I don't think repeatedly saying it is makes it so.

As for my comment about putting stickers on CUs prohibiting others from working on them - yes it was silly, it was meant to be, lol. It was just meant to demonstrate that the existence of a sticker stating that something is criminal does not in itself make it criminal!

I'm not meaning to get at you or anyone else on here. I just think the industry as a whole is being to ready to sit back and take the blame here. I actually think it's pretty disgraceful for large organizations (the DNOs) to accuse en-mass an entire industry of routine criminal action without being prepared to take action accordingly.

I'm probably not gonna write any more on this, for the time being anyway; I've had my little rant lol and will let other people make up their own minds!

What do you mean no act of parliament? You've got the ESQCR and electricity act which deal with DNO equipment and metering for starters

 

[shanky887614]

What do you mean no act of parliament? You've got the ESQCR and electricity act which deal with DNO equipment and metering for starters

im sure it says tampering with dno equipment now removing the fuse to replace the tails from the outgoing side of the meter isnt tampering.

besides im sure they wouldnt take you to court and go against the electricity at work act etc.

now if you have the correct ppe then they wouldnt have a leg to stand on if they say it is for safety.

i doubt a single phase fuse carrier breaking apart wouldnt instantly burst into a fireball that completely engulfs you.

please correct me if im wrong.

 

[davesparks]

i doubt a single phase fuse carrier breaking apart wouldnt instantly burst into a fireball that completely engulfs you.

please correct me if im wrong.

No fireball but it has the potential for an arc flash of significant proportions.

Fireballs take quite a bit of work to create, we've spent a bit of time on perfecting them.

 

[stevethesparks]

View attachment 29601 Cheap are these seals.

I should think that legally as the sign is still in place the fine as stated applies.
It would be tempting to leave a £2.00 coin on the meter :thinking:

 

[davesparks]

im sure it says tampering with dno equipment now removing the fuse to replace the tails from the outgoing side of the meter isnt tampering.

besides im sure they wouldnt take you to court and go against the electricity at work act etc.

now if you have the correct ppe then they wouldnt have a leg to stand on if they say it is for safety.

i doubt a single phase fuse carrier breaking apart wouldnt instantly burst into a fireball that completely engulfs you.

please correct me if im wrong.

I think you'll find there is probably no offence in pulling the cutout fuse under the electricity act, but there will be an offence in putting it back in as the laws are concerned with making a connection without permission rather than disconnecting.
They wouldn't be going against the electricity at work act, you would not be complying with it when you pull the cutout fuse. The correct way to deal with the situation is to contact the DNO to temporarily disconnect, this would be recognised as the correct way to so it as far as the EAWR is concerned. You will find it hard to come up with a risk assessment which says it is safer for you to do it without the correct training etc than it is for a DNO operative to do it.