Timber and Downlighters

[monkee]

I went to a property yesterday to replace an LV tranny.

The house had recently been rewired I found that the downlighters had been drilled through the timber joist

First I know its structure of some degree secound thay were open backed downlighters more or less touching the timber.

I replaced the light and adviced the agent thay said thay did not want to worrie the client.

I decided to phoned for adviced and thay said you need to apply an engineering approach to it and also check with the manufacture details

when installing down lights.

can you install fire rated say through a nogin I was all ways told to keep it 50mm away from any thing

I am amazed this is still being done

any thoughts what is all you guys doing when you, a install and b when doing PIR

 

[TaffyDuck]

Well as far as I am aware most manufacturers installation instructions, at least the ones I have seen, stipulate a minimum distance away from the joists, usually 50mm or so. Having said that I have seen this many times when doing inspections and always flag it up on the report. I did buy some downlighters once that were specifically designed for wooden cladded ceilings however they are rare and I would suggest you cover yourself with a letter explaining your concerns to the letting agent.

 

[Bright Sparks]

Being within the lighting industry on the test and engineering side that is a big NO NO. Apart from the structural issues, from a fitting perspective, if this is using a halogen lamp it could cause a serious fire risk.

Halogen lamps can get up to temperatures of 250 Deg C and some of the new IRC lamps up to 400 Deg C, although there is a big of an air gap for some heat dissipation etc the joist would still be subject to a huge amount of heat.

Cover yourself and express your 'concerns' to the managing agent in writing and follow it up with a second if you have no response. If it comes to a fire the blame is first levelled at the installer as you are responsible for ensuring it is safe. In a court of law a 'but he said it was fine, just do it' is not likely to hold much defence, when the manufacturers instructions state recommendations etc.

Hope this helps

 

[KFH]

Have a look at the ESC article on downlighters.

 

[GT1]

Fire rated down lights are only for use when penetrating a known fire barrier, to maintain the fire barrier. This mainly comes into play when working on ceilings dividing individual flats, or where an internal wall separates from a garage.

They are no "safer" than ordinary downlights, and it is pointless installing them unless the rest of light fittings on the floor are also uprated to prevent fire passage through them.

 

[PC Electrics]

I replaced the light and adviced the agent thay said thay did not want to worrie the client.

Seriously???

The client should be damned worried

 

[VoltzElectrical]

seriously bad practise. Why the installer didn't reposition when he realised he hit a joist beats me. Sorry I'm not up on the legal stuff to advise you as the follow on spark.

Ideally, the light/s need repositioned, and the structural weakening reinstated.

 

[Brightspark2]

and it is pointless installing them unless the rest of light fittings on the floor are also uprated to prevent fire passage through them.

Id disagree, lets say you have fire rated downlights in the kitchen but dont in the living room, seperated by a hall, a fire starts in the kitchen. Id say the fire rated downlights would be better than having standard downlights in there.

What do you think?....

 

[monkee]

I know I am amazed about what I saw we have had some house fires here in the last six months and it looks like theres going to be more, this firm is registered and gets quite good work really frustrating stuff......

 

[monkee]

Brightspark 2 I know what you are saying I agree, GT1 that is correct with ref but really if you can shield the lamp by using

a fire rated downlighter its doing two jobs instead of one. also on the market there is insulated rated down lighters

but LED is here so heat will become less of an issue to a point, also with open back who uses a heat proof tail to the

lampholder on GU ten fittings in case the customer pulls on another fitting whislt changing the lamp!!!!

 

[Piratepete]

Hi
I have an installation to do, crisscrossed with rafters and noggins making life difficult.
I questioned a manufacturer about the space required (80mm) around a fire rated fitting. He confirmed that this was only required for the clips and that a distance of 10mm from the rafter is adequate. Obviously the majority of the heat goes out through the ventilation holes in the top of the can.
Pete

 

[maudy]

Hi
I have an installation to do, crisscrossed with rafters and noggins making life difficult.
I questioned a manufacturer about the space required (80mm) around a fire rated fitting. He confirmed that this was only required for the clips and that a distance of 10mm from the rafter is adequate. Obviously the majority of the heat goes out through the ventilation holes in the top of the can.
Pete

Hi Pete

thats interesting, i'm doing a similar thing at the moment - which manufacturer told you that?

 

[Piratepete]

Hi Pete

thats interesting, i'm doing a similar thing at the moment - which manufacturer told you that?

Electrifix technical advice - I was using their own brand LAP 230V fire rated fittings. I'm quite impressed by these. The clips are in line with the terminal block (not at rt-angles) - so that helps in tight spaces. Also the terminal block is screwed securely to the bracket which scores over some fittings at 4 x price. My only reservation is that the retaining springs are only just adequate stengthwise.

Pete

 

[maudy]

Electrifix technical advice - I was using their own brand LAP 230V fire rated fittings. I'm quite impressed by these. The clips are in line with the terminal block (not at rt-angles) - so that helps in tight spaces. Also the terminal block is screwed securely to the bracket which scores over some fittings at 4 x price. My only reservation is that the retaining springs are only just adequate stengthwise.

Pete

ahhh right - im using the robus ones at the moment (fire rated metal can type) but the tech spec says that they need 100mm either side. I'm stressing because I've only got 55mm to a joist.

 

[maudy]

i was wondering if there was any thermally reflective shielding that you can use when you are to close??

Anyone??

 

[telectrix]

ahhh right - im using the robus ones at the moment (fire rated metal can type) but the tech spec says that they need 100mm either side. I'm stressing because I've only got 55mm to a joist.

i'd not worry about 55mm, most of the heat from the lamp goes up. the can of the fitting will stop heat reaching the joist. having said that, manufacturers instructions must be followed, and in this case i would be inclined to seek advice from robus technical.