Which Route? C&G or NVQ?

[AndyG33]

Hi All

I'm pretty new to this forum so please forgive me if you're all sick to death of hearing this same question.

I'm looking to retrain as an electrician (the right way hopefully...) so I'm just looking for a little clarification on what qualifications I'd need and which you'd consider the best route.

Bit about me, I'm just turning 40 have previously worked in I.T. and have just been made redundant and don't want to just jump back into another thankless I.T related role for the sake of the money. Also as I've got another 30 years until I retire I'd like to do something I can eventually use to work self employed or give me to freedom to move abroad perhaps. I've always been a bit more hands on and redundancy has given me a shove to do something more rewarding.

As far as I can make out there are two (proper) ways to become "qualified". The Apprentice route which from what I can make out is the NVQ qualification. Or, the City and Guilds Level 2+3 2365(?) direction. Please correct me if I'm wrong I'm here to learn after all.

I believe the C+G route is more college learning with some work experience if you're lucky enough and the apprentice route is more work orientated with a day release to college (again if you have a good employer).

Fundamentaly is the end result going to be the same? I'd like to get earning ASAP (obviously avoiding the intensive 5 week courses that seem to be a waste of money from what I've read on here). This brings me to another question actually. Can I work as an electricians mate with just the C+G lvl 2 (2365) while continuing to study for the lvl 3? Do I have to study for the lvl 2 at all, or can I jump right in at lvl3?

I appreciate this is a lot of questions and probably seems quite naive to the more experienced but like I said just need some advice on how to go about this the right way.

Hope you can help.

Thanks

 

[Ste69]

Enrol on the 2365 at your local college doing night classes........you are best off starting at level 2 as you have no experience. During this time, apply to local electricians asking for work experience, electrical mates jobs and even apprenticeships.....if you are not lucky enough to gain employment straight away, you should probably take an IT job during the day while study at night......it will take 3 years night classes to get the 2365 qualification.......then you will need the NVQ3 and AM2 that can take an extra year ( though you can do the NVQ3 alongside the 2365 if you have work).

 

[Ste69]

if you get an apprenticeship you will do 2357 which is basically 2365,NVQ3 and AM2 rolled into one........you can also get your 17th edition during that time and also aim to get your 2394 and 2395 inspection and testing after all the above!

stick city and guilds in front of all them numbers lol

 

[AndyG33]

Enrol on the 2365 at your local college doing night classes........you are best off starting at level 2 as you have no experience. During this time, apply to local electricians asking for work experience, electrical mates jobs and even apprenticeships.....if you are not lucky enough to gain employment straight away, you should probably take an IT job during the day while study at night......it will take 3 years night classes to get the 2365 qualification.......then you will need the NVQ3 and AM2 that can take an extra year ( though you can do the NVQ3 alongside the 2365 if you have work).

Thanks Ste,

I've found this course not too far from me Oldham College -

Is this the C+G 2365 I need to then move onto the 2365 Level 3 in electrical installation?

thanks for your help

 

[Ste69]

No problem mate.........I that is the course.

goood luck

 

[Ste69]

once you have enrolled on the course you should get access to the trainee section on this site (your name will turn purple) you will get more help off members and also a private section to ask questions without feeling stupid or getting shot down off grumpy old sparks!

 

[davesparks]

There s a bit of misinformation in the posts above.

C&G is an examinations board who administer the qualifications.

2365 is the technical qualification, it covers the underpinning knowledge.

2357 is the NVQ which covers the practical side of the job.

The AM2 is a practical exam which is required as part of the NVQ.

To be a fully qualified electrician you need the 2365, NVQ and at least 3 years working full time alongside a qualified electrician (apprenticeship)

 

[AndyG33]

Cool thanks both, I'll email the college tomorrow and see about getting on a course.

 

[Guest55]

no-one stepped in with the reality check then ?

 

[happysteve]

Hi

Here's a guide to all the C&G qualifications

In particular (underlined bits my emphasis):

[h=3]2357 (Level 3)[/h]This is the qualification that currently allows the learner to gain approval as an electrician. It is a National Vocational Qualification (NVQ) and is part of the current recognised apprenticeship scheme.


The qualification is made up of knowledge and performance units that are built around the National Occupation Standards (NOS) for electricians. The knowledge units are assessed by a range of assignments, written examinations and online multiple choice tests at a college or training centre. The performance units are assessed on site in the real working environment. Although a trainee does not need to be employed to achieve this qualification, obtaining evidence for the performance units on site is very difficult to achieve if the trainee is unemployed. The qualification also includes the three-day Achievement Measurement 2 assessment, which apprentices must complete at an independent assessment centre managed by National Electrotechnical Training (NET).

2357 usually take three to four years to complete. Successful candidates are eligible for Joint Industry Board (JIB) Gold Card Status.


[h=3]2365 (Levels 2 and 3)[/h]This is known as the ‘Tech Cert’ and is intended for those not currently employed within the industry but who wish to be in the future. It is a knowledge-only qualification with limited ‘off-site’ practical assessment. The qualification is delivered at a college or training centre but students must, at the start of the course, sign a declaration that they understand that this qualification does not allow them to become qualified electricians. Students who gain employment may transfer their knowledge skills to 2357 and complete the performance units of the NVQ on site, as well as an AM2, to become qualified electricians. This qualification typically takes one year to complete each level.


The reason why this qualification is split into two levels is because a number of students may complete one year of study at level 2, consider level 3 too difficult, but still find employment within industry using their good level of skills and knowledge.

 

[Ste69]

There s a bit of misinformation in the posts above.

C&G is an examinations board who administer the qualifications.

2365 is the technical qualification, it covers the underpinning knowledge.

2357 is the NVQ which covers the practical side of the job.

The AM2 is a practical exam which is required as part of the NVQ.

To be a fully qualified electrician you need the 2365, NVQ and at least 3 years working full time alongside a qualified electrician (apprenticeship)

A little bit of misinformation above also. in bold.

The 2357 is not just the practical side it incorporates the tech cert and AM2

You dont "need" the 2365, you can do the 2357........though you can go the 2365 route (with being a mature student this is probably the best route)

 

[davesparks]

2365 is the technical certificate which is required to complete the 2357, therefore you do need the 2365.

 

[Guest77]

Pointless, 40 years old and hoping to get fast tracked to a qualification which if successful will knacker out your knee joints and drive you insane whilst trying to deal with builders and regulations, it will be at least 4 years before your competant, forget the whole thing and get back into IT, clean plenty of tea and a nice warm radiator to sit next to.

 

[shanky887614]

Pointless, 40 years old and hoping to get fast tracked to a qualification which if successful will knacker out your knee joints and drive you insane whilst trying to deal with builders and regulations, it will be at least 4 years before your competant, forget the whole thing and get back into IT, clean plenty of tea and a nice warm radiator to sit next to.

he would be better going into a different it job, there are many different types, if you want something interesting go into security

 

[Guest77]

he would be better going into a different it job, there are many different types, if you want something interesting go into security

A beer taster for Marstons perhaps

 

[happysteve]

2365 is the technical certificate which is required to complete the 2357, therefore you do need the 2365.

Perhaps you're thinking of the old 2330 (tech cert) + 2356 (NVQ)? Now, they were separate qualifications. But the 2357 encompasses all of the theory and the practical. The theory parts of the 2357 are very similar to the 2365, but they are not the same - confusingly, they have the different unit numbers (e.g. unit 305 in 2365 is equivalent to 309 on the 2357). So you sign up for one or the other. If you sign up for the 2365, you can convert this to the 2357 by doing a bridging module (which tidies up the small differences in the theory between the two qualifications) and by doing an NVQ portfolio. I have no idea what would happen if you signed up for the 2357 and did all your theory but not your portfolio - maybe they could "downgrade" this to a 2365, maybe not - don't know!

Pointless, 40 years old and hoping to get fast tracked to a qualification which if successful will knacker out your knee joints and drive you insane whilst trying to deal with builders and regulations, it will be at least 4 years before your competant, forget the whole thing and get back into IT, clean plenty of tea and a nice warm radiator to sit next to.

This made me sad.

I missed the bit where he said (or implied) he was hoping to get fast tracked to a qualification. He was asking about the 2365 (at least 2 years, usually 3, and then the practical experience) or the 2357 (recognised NVQ route to being a qualified electrician, usually 4 years).

Anyway, peace

 

[AndyG33]

Pointless, 40 years old and hoping to get fast tracked to a qualification which if successful will knacker out your knee joints and drive you insane whilst trying to deal with builders and regulations, it will be at least 4 years before your competant, forget the whole thing and get back into IT, clean plenty of tea and a nice warm radiator to sit next to.

Is that what you tell all your trainees? (assuming you're still a "mentor") LOL. I'll take all that with a pinch of salt I'm sure is it were so bad you'd have motivated yourself to go do something else by now.

You sound a bit like my old careers adviser from back in school circa 1989... probably why I've been stuck in a soulless un-fulfilling job for the past 20 years.

Either way I'll probably take the level 2 I guess I could always branch out from there and look to specialise.

BTW I wasn't looking to be fast tracked.

Thank's anyhow.

 

[7029 dave]

Andy, it is hard for a lot of us older members,for somebody to be starting out as an adult learner, the point I am trying to make is that we started at 16yrs, I myself was 15yrs working weekends and school holidays, then starting my apprenticeship that was/ is the only path I know how to get into this industry.!!

 

[AndyG33]

Andy, it is hard for a lot of us older members,for somebody to be starting out as an adult learner, the point I am trying to make is that we started at 16yrs, I myself was 15yrs working weekends and school holidays, then starting my apprenticeship that was/ is the only path I know how to get into this industry.!!

I respect everyone's opinion Dave just don't see a change of career as being pointless. Besides 40 ain't too old lol. I'm sure it was tongue in cheek rather than overt bitterness.

 

[Ste69]

Dont listen to them mate.....if you want to be an electrician then go ahead, get stuck in and be one.........be prepared to work hard and go the full 4 year route....at the end of the day if it dont work out you can fall back onto I.T work.

get in the trainee section around some positive people! told you about the grumpy lot on the open forum.......im 33 and in my 4th year.........i was one of the youngest when i started ha. i would say most were in there late 30s early 40s........even some in there 50s.

good luck

 

[Rockingit]

In fairness to MDJ, he both has a point and is also trying to do the OP a favour. OK, yes 40 may not be as old as it once was if you've looked after yourself, but look at it from this angle: 40-43 doing the basics and college, 44-47 actually getting some experience learning the trade, 48 - 52 the really hard years of getting a business off the ground then leaves you with (in old school) about 10 yrs left to recoup your pension fund and save like crazy. During which you'll no longer be 40 and WILL have discovered why most Sparks (this one included despite my other hobbies!) have knackered knees and backs, all while trying to keep up with the 20yr old apprentices who are mostly being taught that time is money.

I'm not saying to the OP don't do it, not in the slightest, just saying if you're going to do this then make sure you consider the whole big picture. I know IT is sole-destroying, ironically I fell into it for a while after I did my time as a lad (before then discovering salvation in a life out on the rock n roll world), but it does also have many advantages, too.

 

[Guest77]

Is that what you tell all your trainees? (assuming you're still a "mentor") LOL. I'll take all that with a pinch of salt I'm sure is it were so bad you'd have motivated yourself to go do something else by now.

You sound a bit like my old careers adviser from back in school circa 1989... probably why I've been stuck in a soulless un-fulfilling job for the past 20 years.

Either way I'll probably take the level 2 I guess I could always branch out from there and look to specialise.

BTW I wasn't looking to be fast tracked.

Thank's anyhow.

Firstly your not a trainee yet, I am trying to help you make the right decision, should you post here saying "you are on a course" rather than "should I take a course" then I will help you all I can, I didn't just pop into the trade yesterday fella, I have been in it for 34 years and seen it all regarding back back, bad knees, working outside in freezing cold, metal splinters in hands from pipe threading etc etc, it will take you at least 4-5 years before competance, the pay will be low until then and the work hard, at 40 years old and the fact you have worked in IT, you may find it a major shock to your system, and cut out the sarcasim, if you do enter the Trainee section you will need to lose the chip on the shoulder or we will have you removed from there.

That would be due to the fact you have no go in you to do something about it, you have just now decided on a move and it has not happened yet, if you find it hard to leave a job you hate in your twenties and thirties you may have a hard time training to become an electrician.

Okay well the very best of luck, if you do decide on this and you lose the chip on your shoulder we would love to have you in the trainee area where we give you 100% assistance in anything you need, we have some brilliant guys and trainees in there, good luck either way.

 

[Guest77]

I respect everyone's opinion Dave just don't see a change of career as being pointless. Besides 40 ain't too old lol. I'm sure it was tongue in cheek rather than overt bitterness.

Well I would certainely consider a different trade myself at 40 than installation contracting, most 40 year olds in our trade have progressed to foreman level or go into maintenance, our body's get worn out very quickly mid forties which is the age you will be when competant, nothing wrong with a change of career and I apologise profusially if I gave the wrong impression over that, will have to check my replies a little more next time, I would suggest a different role within IT, different from where you are now but still where you have knowlege, it will be easier to move on and the pay will be much better, you will struggle to earn 100 quid a week as a 1st year trainee or indeed an unexperienced adult mate.

 

[AndyG33]

Firstly your not a trainee yet, I am trying to help you make the right decision, should you post here saying "you are on a course" rather than "should I take a course" then I will help you all I can, I didn't just pop into the trade yesterday fella, I have been in it for 34 years and seen it all regarding back back, bad knees, working outside in freezing cold, metal splinters in hands from pipe threading etc etc, it will take you at least 4-5 years before competance, the pay will be low until then and the work hard, at 40 years old and the fact you have worked in IT, you may find it a major shock to your system, and cut out the sarcasim, if you do enter the Trainee section you will need to lose the chip on the shoulder or we will have you removed from there.

That would be due to the fact you have no go in you to do something about it, you have just now decided on a move and it has not happened yet, if you find it hard to leave a job you hate in your twenties and thirties you may have a hard time training to become an electrician.

Okay well the very best of luck, if you do decide on this and you lose the chip on your shoulder we would love to have you in the trainee area where we give you 100% assistance in anything you need, we have some brilliant guys and trainees in there, good luck either way.

Ok MDJ look, I apologise if I came across disrespectful and as I said I appreciate all feedback good and bad. I see from you last couple of posts you're being constructive and making sure I'm not just getting all the rose tinted advise perhaps and I'm grateful for that I honestly am. I'm also grateful you're big enough to apologise and I'm happy to reciprocate in return. You're obviously knowledgeable and experienced but perhaps the delivery came across a little abrupt.

You've given me some valid points to consider and while you've not managed to put me off the idea of becoming an electrician I'll take on board everything you've said here today. I.T is an option for sure but it's so mind numbingly soul destroying being office bound (central heating aside) I really can't see myself being stuck indoors with my arse on a swivel chair for the next 30 working years of my life. If the worst comes to the worst I'll do the level 2 and install sky dishes or something... rather that than another office job.

I would like to comment however there really is no chip on my shoulder,... well not in this context anyway lol.

 

[Guest77]

Ok MDJ look, I apologise if I came across disrespectful and as I said I appreciate all feedback good and bad. I see from you last couple of posts you're being constructive and making sure I'm not just getting all the rose tinted advise perhaps and I'm grateful for that I honestly am. I'm also grateful you're big enough to apologise and I'm happy to reciprocate in return. You're obviously knowledgeable and experienced but perhaps the delivery came across a little abrupt.

You've given me some valid points to consider and while you've not managed to put me off the idea of becoming an electrician I'll take on board everything you've said here today. I.T is an option for sure but it's so mind numbingly soul destroying being office bound (central heating aside) I really can't see myself being stuck indoors with my arse on a swivel chair for the next 30 working years of my life. If the worst comes to the worst I'll do the level 2 and install sky dishes or something... rather that than another office job.

I would like to comment however there really is no chip on my shoulder,... well not in this context anyway lol.

Well apologies back at you, look let us know if you decide to start the course and we can go from there fella.

 

[LeeH]

Get a room you Two.