Regulations

Discuss Regulations in the Electrical Wiring, Theories and Regulations area at ElectriciansForums.net

J

jase158

Hi all,
I have just bought a house with the intention of selling on.
So I am wondering-
if I add more sockets to the system rather then replacing all the wiring
If I make sure the light in bathroom is outside the required zones
Put a combi boiler in so that there is no need for electric shower or immersion heater
And put a gas hob in
Do I need the work to be notified to building control?
I have attached picture of fuseboard- ignore the tape as it is only for selling purposes- house sold as seen!
I am a plumber and can do electrics but as I am selling it I want to know regulations and get it right!
If it does need to be certified- do any electricians just test it or is it a case of wanting to do all the work yourself to certify it?
Part p states that an electrician can sign it off but what do electricians think of this regulation and the risks involved!
I know I would never sign someone else's gas work off but I would with plumbing work!
Finally any electricians in the County Durham area that would like to quote for work please pm me!

View attachment 35937
 
These are the notification requirements
4ddf2185fb3e141517352eebdac40a07


So not notifiable to LABC. But you should be writing out Minor Works certificates to confirm that your electrical work complies with BS7671. You'll be using your calibrated test equipment to do this, of course;)
 
jase158 said:
Hi all,
I have just bought a house with the intention of selling on.
So I am wondering-
if I add more sockets to the system rather then replacing all the wiring
If I make sure the light in bathroom is outside the required zones
Put a combi boiler in so that there is no need for electric shower or immersion heater
And put a gas hob in
Do I need the work to be notified to building control?
I have attached picture of fuseboard- ignore the tape as it is only for selling purposes- house sold as seen!
I am a plumber and can do electrics but as I am selling it I want to know regulations and get it right!
If it does need to be certified- do any electricians just test it or is it a case of wanting to do all the work yourself to certify it?
Part p states that an electrician can sign it off but what do electricians think of this regulation and the risks involved!
I know I would never sign someone else's gas work off but I would with plumbing work!
Finally any electricians in the County Durham area that would like to quote for work please pm me!

Coming onto an electricians forum being a plumber saying "i can do electrics" isnt going to go down well. What electrics do you know? & how do you know when testing if it complies with current regulation?!
Click to expand...
 
jase158 said:
there is an earth coming outside the consumer unit on left side
Click to expand...
Yes, you need to trace where that goes to.
There is also an earth conductor from the top right of the CU disappearing into the ceiling. you need to trace where that goes to.

Its a new consumer unit, only a year old. You should have been given the Installation certificate for the consumer unit as part of the house documents. The first page of that certificate will tell you what the supply type is.
 
Taylortwocities said:
Yes, you need to trace where that goes to.
There is also an earth conductor from the top right of the CU disappearing into the ceiling. you need to trace where that goes to.

Its a new consumer unit, only a year old. You should have been given the Installation certificate for the consumer unit as part of the house documents. The first page of that certificate will tell you what the supply type is.
Click to expand...

The last inspection date may have been an EICR. It looks like an insulated CU to me
 
Taylortwocities said:
Yes, you need to trace where that goes to.
There is also an earth conductor from the top right of the CU disappearing into the ceiling. you need to trace where that goes to.

Its a new consumer unit, only a year old. You should have been given the Installation certificate for the consumer unit as part of the house documents. The first page of that certificate will tell you what the supply type is.
Click to expand...

We complete in 3 weeks so will get that paperwork on completion- however I am assuming that this hasn't been certified or notified to building control in which case it may need to be tested and inspected!
But I assume that this is easily done?
I have been to many jobs where the customer says- It was like that when we moved in!
And asked for certification!!
It is obvious that it has just been installed by the colour of the pipe and the amount the customer knows about the work!
So I dont want to go down this route.

But will any electrician sign it off if all cables are visible, all trunking installed and not plastered over until inspected etc?
 
jase158 said:
But will any electrician sign it off if all cables are visible,
Click to expand...


What do you mean by "sign it off"

Under the CPS scheme agreement, only the registered installer can self-notify.
If no notification was made, you may need to get this regularised. There's a cost for that, ask the LABC. Have your solicitor tell you what documents are provided in the bundle relating to this notifiable work. It all may be kosher!!
If it is not the get a reduction in the house price to cover your costs to get it sorted.
 
jase158 said:
We complete in 3 weeks so will get that paperwork on completion- however I am assuming that this hasn't been certified or notified to building control in which case it may need to be tested and inspected!
But I assume that this is easily done?
I have been to many jobs where the customer says- It was like that when we moved in!
And asked for certification!!
It is obvious that it has just been installed by the colour of the pipe and the amount the customer knows about the work!
So I dont want to go down this route.

But will any electrician sign it off if all cables are visible, all trunking installed and not plastered over until inspected etc?
Click to expand...

If you get a certificate/report handed over dated 7/16 as stated on the CU then this should give a fair and up to date indication of the state of the system.
No other electrician should be signing any certificates or notifications for work they did not carry out and have no knowledge of.
 
jase158 said:
why do you say that?
Click to expand...
He means there should be no holes in the top of the CU.
The W.R. require that accessible top surfaces of encosuresmust be at least IP4X. That means no gaps bigger than 1mm are permitted in the top.
From the picture, it looks like the cables come through the top of the CU. But the cables may come from behind, or they may have been sealed. Needs a closer look though.....
 
jase158 said:
View attachment 35939
Click to expand...

OK, third party certification and notification is like this.
Not all schemes allow this process despite the legislation being in place to allow it. Those schemes that do allow it insist that the electrician signing for the work has inspected it at first fix to ensure compliance of the installation with BS7671, as well as inspection and testing at completion.
As it is now after the fact this option will not be possible. As Taylor says LABC will decide how they want to proceed in this situation.
 
Yes. But neither of those relate to work done over 9 months ago!!

Also the "registered third party" category is one that was dreamt up by the Part P committee without the buy in of the Competent Person schemes. So just because they have created a "registered third party" category, does not mean that there are many.
Note that this is a special category allowed by the very few CPS that took it on (most either did not or could not get any of their members interested.
So your regular registered electrician will still not be able to do this.

One or two of the sparking brain surgeons on here may have the 'third party' badge though ......

anybody..???????? Hello........????
 
Andy78 said:
OK, third party certification and notification is like this.
Not all schemes allow this process despite the legislation being in place to allow it. Those schemes that do allow it insist that the electrician signing for the work has inspected it at first fix to ensure compliance of the installation with BS7671, as well as inspection and testing at completion.
As it is now after the fact this option will not be possible. As Taylor says LABC will decide how they want to proceed in this situation.
Click to expand...

Ok, thank you, so is this the same for minor works? I am not what i would class as "competent" at testing, so even if I bought the equipment I would not know how to use it.
 
jase158 said:
Hi all,
I have just bought a house with the intention of selling on.
So I am wondering-
if I add more sockets to the system rather then replacing all the wiring
If I make sure the light in bathroom is outside the required zones
Put a combi boiler in so that there is no need for electric shower or immersion heater
And put a gas hob in
Do I need the work to be notified to building control?
I have attached picture of fuseboard- ignore the tape as it is only for selling purposes- house sold as seen!
I am a plumber and can do electrics but as I am selling it I want to know regulations and get it right!
If it does need to be certified- do any electricians just test it or is it a case of wanting to do all the work yourself to certify it?
Part p states that an electrician can sign it off but what do electricians think of this regulation and the risks involved!
I know I would never sign someone else's gas work off but I would with plumbing work!
Finally any electricians in the County Durham area that would like to quote for work please pm me!

View attachment 35937
Click to expand...
Nice clips on those tails
 
so you have to complete 5 different qualifications to become an electrician- spend thousands on test equipment and then £600 odd on CPS and they change the regulations to let any tom, dick and harry do there own electrics- Glad I am not an electrician. Are they looking to change this? surely the biggest cause of fires is people putting cheap spotlights in loft right next to beams, paper and insulation? Yet the regulations are so confusing that anybody thinks they can do it.
At least with Gas Safe they have a hard and fast rule- nobody touch any Gas appliance or pipework
Its kind of like if they said anybody could play with a boiler but can not touch the gas components!!
 
spinlondon said:
Actually, with Corgi/Gas Safe, anyone can do gas work without being registered, as long as they don't get paid for doing the work.
Click to expand...

3.—(1) No person shall carry out any work in relation to a gas fitting or gas storage vessel unless he is competent to do so.

(2) The employer of any person carrying out such work for that employer, every other employer and self-employed person who has control to any extent of such work and every employer and self-employed person who has required such work to be carried out at any place of work under his control shall ensure that paragraph (1) above is complied with in relation to such work.

(3) Without prejudice to the generality of paragraphs (1) and (2) above and subject to paragraph (4) below, no employer shall allow any of his employees to carry out any work in relation to a gas fitting or service pipework and no self-employed person shall carry out any such work, unless the employer or self-employed person, as the case may be, is a member of a class of persons approved for the time being by the Health and Safety Executive for the purposes of this paragraph.

(4) The requirements of paragraph (3) above shall not apply in respect of—

(a)the replacement of a hose or regulator on a portable or mobile space heater; or

(b)the replacement of a hose connecting a re-fillable cylinder to installation pipework.
 
"The following are examples of what may constitute ‘bringing the Gas Safe Register into disrepute’. This is not an exhaustive list but should be considered as indicative:

Using unregistered engineers to carry out gas work or signing off others’ gas work as your own"

The gas safe is 1 cps scheme that everyone recognizes and knows- not 6-8 different schemes with different requirements
 
Last edited by a moderator:
jase158 said:
The following are examples of what may constitute ‘bringing the Gas Safe Register into disrepute’. This is not an exhaustive list but should be considered as indicative:

Using unregistered engineers to carry out gas work or signing off others’ gas work as your own

The gas safe is 1 cps scheme that everyone recognizes and knows- not 6-8 different schemes with different requirements
Click to expand...

I know a few gas guys who sign off unregistered guys work....
 
Don't be angry about it - it's not our fault, it frustrates us as well.
Do as Taylor in #14 said and get your solicitor to ascertain what certificates are available - if there are non then have a jiggle with the purchase price or if you have to cough up yourself when you have the place and get an EICR performed on the place. Any remedials can be negotiated with the electrician to bring you right up to selling state. You can't do everything yourself so hand that one out and pay for it.
Just my opinion. Ps. I won't do any plumbing in my place - dirty messy stuff is water!
 
Murdoch said:
I know a few gas guys who sign off unregistered guys work....
Click to expand...
Please Please Please report them- Not because I want all the work myself but simply because they are putting peoples lives in risk!
It is impossible to check every part of an installation on a check after the work has been completed.
I know several gas engineers who have been called back because screws were missing on the boilers.
Flues are sealed in the wall and can not be inspected once they have been installed, if this is wrong this can leak products of combustion into the cavity.
If they are good friends then speak to them about what they are doing and the risks involved.
You wouldn't get on a plane if you knew they hadn't done any safety checks, would you?
 
Rpa07 said:
Don't be angry about it - it's not our fault, it frustrates us as well.
Do as Taylor in #14 said and get your solicitor to ascertain what certificates are available - if there are non then have a jiggle with the purchase price or if you have to cough up yourself when you have the place and get an EICR performed on the place. Any remedials can be negotiated with the electrician to bring you right up to selling state. You can't do everything yourself so hand that one out and pay for it.
Just my opinion. Ps. I won't do any plumbing in my place - dirty messy stuff is water!
Click to expand...
Not angry, just feel sorry for you guys! I always wonder what if the customer pulls the boiler apart once I leave and have signed it off- but you guys are signing something off with a guarantee that they will almost always mess about with it as soon as you leave
 
jase158 said:
Please Please Please report them- Not because I want all the work myself but simply because they are putting peoples lives in risk!
It is impossible to check every part of an installation on a check after the work has been completed.
I know several gas engineers who have been called back because screws were missing on the boilers.
Flues are sealed in the wall and can not be inspected once they have been installed, if this is wrong this can leak products of combustion into the cavity.
If they are good friends then speak to them about what they are doing and the risks involved.
You wouldn't get on a plane if you knew they hadn't done any safety checks, would you?
Click to expand...

They are not friends.... Just guys I know....

As a spark I never sign off anyone's work....
 
Everyday is the year of living dangerously - I use a voltage indicator on the front door bell, I'm so suspicious!
jase158 said:
but you guys are signing something off with a guarantee that they will almost always mess about with it as soon as you leave
Click to expand...
 
If you can prove competence, you are allowed legally to diy gas in your own home. This does not however, apply to doing gas work for family and friends even if without charge. (This has been confirmed by the HSE)

Competence is only proven by passing ACS exams and having the appropriate equipment and ability to carry out certain safety tests required by law.

Please note if you ignore this advice:

1) If you are found working illegally, (not gas competent), you are breaking the law and the H.S.E. can prosecute. Example HERE
2) You will be putting your family at risk of Carbon Monoxide poisoning.
3) Your insurance co is likely to reject any claims being caused by DIY gas work.

Read more: DIY GAS - https://www.diynot.com/diy/threads/diy-gas.8090/#ixzz4boK5R647
 
Problem here, is that the question of competency would only arise if something were to go wrong.
As for the stuff about having to pass the ACS exams, that's just not the case at all.
There are installations which are exempt from the requirements of the Legislation. The persons working at such installations are not required to be registered, or hold any ACS qualifications.
Such people would generally be deemed competent.
 
Yeah these are clearly defined- If I was to research it properly the definition of "competent" is even defined clearly in plain English. Trust me it is covered.

This is why I posted this thread as in Gas everything is covered, if its not in the gas regulations then it is in the manufacturers installation instructions, which supersede the regulations or in the Gas safe regulations, every stone has been turned every dot has been crossed every t has been crossed.

And if that isn't enough- you can be done for impersonating a government official for falsely pretending to be gas safe registered whether that is when you sell the house or when the house explodes and kills all the neighbors.
And then you will find it impossible to sell the house without a building control certificate for the boiler.
 
Factories, mines, quarries, among others.
Having the necessary skill, knowledge or ability to do something successfully.
Sorry, you may believe everything is covered, but there really has been no change since Corgi was introduced.
The Regulations only apply to persons who conduct gas work for remuneration, and will continue to do so, until competent is changed to qualified.
You may well be able to be done for impersonation, but only if you tell someone that you are registered.
 
spinlondon said:
Factories, mines, quarries, among others.
Having the necessary skill, knowledge or ability to do something successfully.
Sorry, you may believe everything is covered, but there really has been no change since Corgi was introduced.
The Regulations only apply to persons who conduct gas work for remuneration, and will continue to do so, until competent is changed to qualified.
You may well be able to be done for impersonation, but only if you tell someone that you are registered.
Click to expand...
Quarries, mines, factories, training centres, caravans, boats and portable devices are not covered and you do not need to be competent to fit them or work on them.
Bizarly I have answered my question by arguing about the regs- Am I a competent electrician? Will the house sell without correct paperwork? Will anybody sign off my work- No!
 
bigspark17 said:
Jase your living in a dream world..please fly back over to the plumbing forum on the magic carpet you came here on, & dont come back!!
Click to expand...
This is exactly why I left plumbing forum- plumbers can't have a healthy discussion without being rude and abusive to each other!
 
SO back to the OP:

Do you have the latest copy of the regs, OSG and relevant guidance notes?
Do you have a calibrated tester?
Does your PL insurance cover doing electrics?
 
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