EICRs ZXZCZXZCZXZCZXZC

[Pete999]

A point of interest really, not having done that many EICRs and the few that I have done did not come with any problems.
After reading about "how should I code this that or the other" got me thinking.
Where I worked we were given written permission to disconnect any dodgy installs we found at overseas locations.
Got me wondering, if a Sparky is doing an EICR and his / her finding leave them in very little doubt that the installation is unsafe, what action, other than telling the client the bad news should / can be taken by the Electrician doing the testing?

 

[The Ghost]

Immediate action will be necessary after informing the client and in any event (presuming C1)must be made safe before leaving the place of work. Agreement with the person ordering the work being so informed as to the course of action to be made safe. Making safe before leaving site is a requirement under the EAWR. There are "dangerous condition" forms used to inform/record the problem which are somtimes used to notify the person ordering the work. EICR cannot continue until the matter is resolved.

 

[Strima]

Depends on the level of danger present. Exposed conductors easily reached, DB about to catch fire etc then I would isolate and immediately inform the customer.

Anything less than that then I would inform the customer accordingly and advise them on how to proceed.

 

[Pete999]

Immediate action will be necessary after informing the client and in any event (presuming C1)must be made safe before leaving the place of work. Agreement with the person ordering the work being so informed as to the course of action to be made safe. Making safe before leaving site is a requirement under the EAWR. There are "dangerous condition" forms used to inform/record the problem which are somtimes used to notify the person ordering the work. EICR cannot continue until the matter is resolved.

Thanks Vorty

 

[Pete999]

Depends on the level of danger present. Exposed conductors easily reached, DB about to catch fire etc then I would isolate and immediately inform the customer.

Anything less than that then I would inform the customer accordingly and advise them on how to proceed.

Thanks Strima

 

[Octopus]

The situation with EICR's and coding is nothing short of a farce.

The best practice guide no 4 is the closest thing that anyone, spark out end user has as a point of reference.

For me the BPG is my reference, and that's because end users can read and understand it.

Just saying

 

[Strima]

The situation with EICR's and coding is nothing short of a farce.

The best practice guide no 4 is the closest thing that anyone, spark out end user has as a point of reference.

For me the BPG is my reference, and that's because end users can read and understand it.

Just saying

I like the idea of sparking out the end user, solves a lot of problems.

 

[Pete999]

The situation with EICR's and coding is nothing short of a farce.

The best practice guide no 4 is the closest thing that anyone, spark out end user has as a point of reference.

For me the BPG is my reference, and that's because end users can read and understand it.

Just saying

Thanks

 

[Strima]

A lot of it boils down to the inspectors judgement as well.

I've seen C2's given for lack of labelling but no mention of damaged basic insulation showing conductor.

 

[Pete999]

A lot of it boils down to the inspectors judgement as well.

I've seen C2's given for lack of labelling but no mention of damaged basic insulation showing conductor.

I was thinking more along the lines of it being so blatantly dangerous, I have an answer but thanks again for your input

 

[Octopus]

A lot of it boils down to the inspectors judgement as well.

I've seen C2's given for lack of labelling but no mention of damaged basic insulation showing conductor.

Lack of labeling a C2 .... Hum .... Stupidity.

 

[Risteard]

Lack of labeling a C2 .... Hum .... Stupidity.

It can be a very serious issue in a large installation as it essentially makes maintenance impossible.

 

[westward10]

This is where the Coding definitions don't allow an option for requires improvement like the old Category system. C3 to me is wishy washy with its improvement recommended.

 

[Des 56]

what action, other than telling the client the bad news should / can be taken by the Electrician doing the testing?

If we are talking about imposing a action after finding what we consider a dangerous installation,I would say we have no authority or legal compulsion to do anything at all

I believe Plumbers can disconnect a dangerous gas system,however, we have no authority at all, other than that which the client places upon us

 

[Pete999]

what action, other than telling the client the bad news should / can be taken by the Electrician doing the testing?

If we are talking about imposing a action after finding what we consider a dangerous installation,I would say we have no authority or legal compulsion to do anything at all

I believe Plumbers can disconnect a dangerous gas system,however, we have no authority at all, other than that which the client places upon us

Thanks Des

 

[Wilko]

Agree Des. No authority to take action to remedy. I haven't been in this situation but it seems sensible to stop work, inform and create a barrier etc. If it was overheating with fire risk then I would inform, isolate and put tin hat on

 

[Pete999]

Agree Des. No authority to take action to remedy. I haven't been in this situation but it seems sensible to stop work, inform and create a barrier etc. If it was overheating with fire risk then I would inform, isolate and put tin hat on

I had cause to switch of one or two offices in Embassies in various place, Boss man was no a happy bunnie

 

[westward10]

A few years back on our annual oil boiler service the fella said he would have to isolate because the chimney was blocked by a birds nest, fair enough he switched off the spur and gave me a notice. When he was gone I switched it back on, did get the chimney cleared though.

 

[Toneyz]

I had cause to switch of one or two offices in Embassies in various place, Boss man was no a happy bunnie

what was wrong with the installation Pete ?.

 

[Pete999]

what was wrong with the installation Pete ?.

It was done by Local Sparks in the main and to put it bluntly, it was not up to UK standards, which was what we worked to.

 

[Devonchris]

It was done by Local Sparks in the main and to put it bluntly, it was not up to UK standards, which was what we worked to.

I bet they didn't knew they were only allowed one bug off each spur.

 

[Pete999]

I bet they didn't knew they were only allowed one bug off each spur.

Can't say

 

[Devonchris]

Can't say

Fair enough. I'm sure that, like me, your a fully signed up and PVed member of the OSA and know it doesn't end with retirement.

 

[Pete999]

Fair enough. I'm sure that, like me, your a fully signed up and PVed member of the OSA and know it doesn't end with retirement.

Correct

 

[The Ghost]

When you say no legal compulsion, what about the requirement to make safe before leaving the place of work under the EAWR. I attended a restaurant the other day and issued a danger notice and disconnected all the circuits and advised not to switch them back on until remedial work had been completed. In this case new CU among other actions. I could not have left there without doing that. What would you have done? The picture in question does not convey the true situation. The cables were soaked. The boxes and cut-out were floating unattached to the wall. The main cut out fuse had blown twice when DNO replaced. The measurements on most of the circuits were below (IR) 1Mohm. I could not in all conscience leave them any other way.

 

[Des 56]

C1: Danger Present: Immediate action is required
The person responsible for the installation’s maintenance is advised to take action without delay to remedy the defect, or take other appropriate action to remove the danger i.e. switching or isolating the installation.

That is some general guidance I found based on the Eawr
As part of that statement above,I would ask

Who is doing the advising?
My own answer,its the tester engaged to assess the duty holders system who advises that duty holder to take action, or the duty holder passes authority to the tester to do so on his behalf
Without the authorisation I believe we have no responsibility at all other than to inform
If a system was dangerous we could leave it switched off,its not our responsibility if its switched back on and continues to be used

 

[ipf]

When you say no legal compulsion, what about the requirement to make safe before leaving the place of work under the EAWR. I attended a restaurant the other day and issued a danger notice and disconnected all the circuits and advised not to switch them back on until remedial work had been completed. In this case new CU among other actions. I could not have left there without doing that. What would you have done? The picture in question does not convey the true situation. The cables were soaked. The boxes and cut-out were floating unattached to the wall. The main cut out fuse had blown twice when DNO replaced. The measurements on most of the circuits were below (IR) 1Mohm. I could not in all conscience leave them any other way.

View attachment 38666

That's it . You ADVISED not to switch back on....but if they wanted to, there is nothing to stop them doing so, except their own conscience.
A written warning is as far as you can go...get it down on paper or email.

 

[The Ghost]

The point I was making is that there is a legal duty on any person attending as electrical engineer/tester to make safe a dangerous situation when observed before leaving or continuing with an EICR. You can't just say "well that could kill you but I'm leaving now best not touch it" You are required to make it safe under the EAWRegs and Section three of the H&S Act please see HSE site on the subject. Of course people have free will and can kill themselves with the danger pointed out and made safe and fly in the face of any advice you may give them. I think it is dangerous to tout the idea there is no legal and or moral duty to endeavour to leave the client as safe as may be possible. I am not arguing that people have the free will to ignore you and do whatever they so wish. However I would suggest if you did leave something unsafe and harm resulted from it you would be facing a hefty fine or prison sentence. So lets be clear about that.