2 spurs from a Junction Box....worried?

[Octopus]

So my closing post on this issue...

I've given you a disagree because I was taught never to have more than 3 cables at any connection on a ring or radial

 

[SparkyChick]

What has come about from this somewhat heated debate, is one or two members have either contacted their respective C.P.Schemes, the NICEIC in this instance, or the IET directly, both organisations have declared that the issue presented to them by members of the Forum, in their opinion is non compliant with BS7671.

It begins to make you wonder how many other inconclusive issues have been left for us Electrical operatives to debate, argue and form our own conclusions, without any definitive statements published by the IET.

Now I know there will be many people out there who will say it's always been this way.

The Regulations, the OSG, the various guidance Notes are not cheap, and those who try to abide by the rules conscientiously buy these publications religiously every time there are updates.

Now back to earlier both the NICEIC and IET have said the issue posed by the OP is non compliant, but seem to be reluctant to provide any proof of non compliance.

On the back of this, I contacted NAPIT (my scheme) and put it to them that I had come across this situation during an EICR and had been advised by a more learned friend that it was a non-compliance, but that I was struggling to find a regulation it contravened.

The answer I received went like this "not good practice, but you won't find a regulation it contravenes".

So yes I fundamentally agree with you Pete, a classic case of ambiguity in the regulations leaving us open to the possibility of ending up in hot water (if something goes wrong for example).

It would be very simple to clarify with an additional clause in 433.1.204 that states each junction box/accessory shall be the origin of a single spur.

I think we all agree it's not good practice, but the ambiguity leaves it open.

 

[westward10]

Oi! You deleted my comment..

I deleted your comment and the associated ones because even though there was no malice to it it was inappropriate for a public forum.

 

[markc123]

First, I didn’t pay a decorator to do anything, second, you should have read more than 1st 3 pages as you would have seen I did call out an electrician.

I apologise for my language this morning and my post was correctly edited by a mod. My outburst was probably a little OTT and if I came across as rude it wasn’t my intention, just this sort of stuff does boil the p155 of electricians.

Maybe I should of read more, but I still think what you tried to undertake was a little more than DIY. On the positive side, I do applaud you for coming and seeking help - many don’t.

 

[westward10]

I asked my scheme, the fella in B&Q he said it was fine and even showed me the parts I required.

 

[SparkyChick]

I've given you a disagree because I was taught never to have more than 3 cables at any connection on a ring or radial

If using a screw junction box, I'd tend to agree due to limited terminal capacity, but with modern jointing methods like Wagos, it's not such a problem.

But regardless, fundamentally (as I've stated so many times I've lost count) I agree... it's not good practice

 

[johnduffell]

The op could always mark it down as a departure when he signs to say he has designed the circuit.
Then even if appendix 15 is not just guidance, it would not be coded unsatisfactory on an eicr. Not that it would anyway if it didn't affect the safety of the installation, but it's down to the designer to decide.

 

[mikep83]

hi, I added the white, to the existing ring. Sorry, bad markup on picture.

 

[Pete999]

hi, I added the white, to the existing ring. Sorry, bad markup on picture.

View attachment 45062

Thanks that clears that issue up nicely

 

[Octopus]

The op could always mark it down as a departure when he signs to say he has designed the circuit.
Then even if appendix 15 is not just guidance, it would not be coded unsatisfactory on an eicr. Not that it would anyway if it didn't affect the safety of the installation, but it's down to the designer to decide.

The OP isn’t a spark .......

 

[Pete999]

My App15 shows it as being fineView attachment 45061

Seems as though if you have the wherewithal to alter drawings you can make yourself look clever. But why spoil a serious debate with cheap shots? not like you Westy.

 

[Octopus]

But regardless, fundamentally (as I've stated so many times I've lost count) I agree... it's not good practice

And as I have stated on many occasions, if the muppets who write the regs actually took notice of these “debates” they would remove any ambiguity in the regs rather than listening to manufacturers and adding unnecesssary products ...

 

[mikep83]

I’m not moving, plus, I think I’m going to rectify when we’re sick of the wallpaper we’re about to put up in 2 yrs!

 

[GMES]

Oi! You deleted my comment..

You're Lucky he didn't delete you for the comment

 

['mr2'gd4u]

I deleted your comment and the associated ones because even though there was no malice to it it was inappropriate for a public forum.

I know, I'm yanking the chain a bit is all.

 

[westward10]

Seems as though if you have the wherewithal to alter drawings you can make yourself look clever. But why spoil a serious debate with cheap shots? not like you Westy.

Come Pete just trying to lighten the mood a bit, did you have to give it a second look

 

[Pete999]

Seems as though if you have the wherewithal

The whole bs 7671 could be speculation. For all we know we might not even really exist...

You been watching to much Star Trek Mate

Come Pete just trying to lighten the mood a bit, did you have to give it a second look

If that's all it was OK

 

[markc123]

OP. Basically fella, you’ve opened a can of worms.

After reading this, and seeing SparkyChick taking on the forum. My opinion is: What you’ve done is bad practice and I would never ever do it like this, and I’ve always been taught that this is wrong. But - hey, it doesn’t appear to be against regs when you scratch beneath the surface.

Talk about a grey area.

 

[Deleted member 9648]

OK, there clearly isn't a definitive answer here and it's been debated to the point of extinction, we'll just have to fall into two camps and agree to disagree. Beer o'clock and apologies for perhaps unfair posts regarding DIYers.

 

[johnduffell]

The OP isn’t a spark .......

My comment was tongue in cheek! however it's true you don't need to be a spark to fill in a valid eic correctly!