Scary or Safe? Legal or Seagull?

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Burnt Fingers

Before anyone thinks it - its not me. I stick to FCU's and baby stuff and I do Minor works forms for changing an accessory because I think i should at my level of competence.

OK - Chap aged a lil older than me (Qualified 1979 no training since) will do domestic CU changes and rewires without any fear, even does special locations, without concerns because he says he has years of experience and he is a Qualified Electrician.
No tests no certs, just wire and fire. I have a Multifunction Tester, that I use, and he just looks at me like I am wearing a dress.

Now I need to do a Part P Limited Scope Course (waits for eggs, bricks and bottles to fly in) because i might want to add a spur in a kitchen, or even....use a mains CCTV camera outside. Consequently I have worked with this bloke for some experience (no touchy just learny) and frankly I have a far better grasp of 7621 and building regs, Inc P.

I have seen him do a lot of things that I would not. I think I should probably not work with him, but, my question is - is this a common situation?

I am very experienced and unqualified so I restrict what I do. But I suspect wht he is doing might actually be a Criminal Offence. At risk of being punched in the face by way of reply, what do you lot think?
 
He's breaking the law, simply. It may come back to haunt him, it may not.

There's no saying how much your learning from him, it's hand's on, I suppose but there's a bit more to this game than housebashing without testing, insurance, qualification, etc, which I think you realize.
 
The fact is...many sparks who qualified at that time and have been in the trade ever since resent the gradual incursion of unskilled parasites feeding off skilled tradesmen who are perfectly capable of working safely and properly without 'supervision' from a scam and endless box ticking. They have been working with pride in the job and in depth knowledge and full compliance with the regulations for decades before part P and compulsory pocket emptying by those who have to justify their existance.
The above may or may not apply to the subject of the OP.
 
The fact that he has no test gear ultimately means that there will no doubt be occasions when he has walked away from a job, which while working, will not be safe. As already said, he's breaking the law, as well as the regs. No amount of "experience" gives anyone the right to do that.
 
I agree with above comments about older more experienced sparks resenting part P, and most of them will have a tonne more knowledge than assessors for the schemes. I myself am a scheme member and notify all relevant work, but I don't blame anyone who does work without notifying it, it's their choice not to subscribe to a system that is, at best, flawed in it's structure, implementation, and policing. Having said that, he is technically breaking the law, yes.

However, anyone that carries out electrical work without proper testing and certification has no right calling themselves a spark, fully qualified or not !
This guy sounds like a rare breed (thankfully) of older sparks I have encountered who have "been there done it all" but in reality have just become complacent and rough. They usually talk a good un, but are invariably responsible for massive --------drops on site.

Stop learning off this guy, and consider taking a proper course to gain qualification. Or at least hook up with another veteran to learn from. There are plenty out there who do things properly.


Oh and you say you have a good knowledge of BS7621, but personally I'm not sure how the calibration of solar radiation pyranometers helps you here. :tounge_smile:
 
Burnt Fingers said:
Before anyone thinks it - its not me. I stick to FCU's and baby stuff and I do Minor works forms for changing an accessory because I think i should at my level of competence.

OK - Chap aged a lil older than me (Qualified 1979 no training since) will do domestic CU changes and rewires without any fear, even does special locations, without concerns because he says he has years of experience and he is a Qualified Electrician.
No tests no certs, just wire and fire. I have a Multifunction Tester, that I use, and he just looks at me like I am wearing a dress.

Now I need to do a Part P Limited Scope Course (waits for eggs, bricks and bottles to fly in) because i might want to add a spur in a kitchen, or even....use a mains CCTV camera outside. Consequently I have worked with this bloke for some experience (no touchy just learny) and frankly I have a far better grasp of 7621 and building regs, Inc P.

I have seen him do a lot of things that I would not. I think I should probably not work with him, but, my question is - is this a common situation?

I am very experienced and unqualified so I restrict what I do. But I suspect wht he is doing might actually be a Criminal Offence. At risk of being punched in the face by way of reply, what do you lot think?
Click to expand...


hmm....do you?
 
Guitarist said:
The fact that he has no test gear ultimately means that there will no doubt be occasions when he has walked away from a job, which while working, will not be safe. As already said, he's breaking the law, as well as the regs. No amount of "experience" gives anyone the right to do that.
Click to expand...
i`v even seen some of em goin into the wholesalers asking for D curve breakers because it `wont hold`...
not even a thought had been paid to loop.....
 
Burnt Fingers said:
Before anyone thinks it - its not me. I stick to FCU's and baby stuff and I do Minor works forms for changing an accessory because I think i should at my level of competence.

OK - Chap aged a lil older than me (Qualified 1979 no training since) will do domestic CU changes and rewires without any fear, even does special locations, without concerns because he says he has years of experience and he is a Qualified Electrician.
No tests no certs, just wire and fire. I have a Multifunction Tester, that I use, and he just looks at me like I am wearing a dress.

Now I need to do a Part P Limited Scope Course (waits for eggs, bricks and bottles to fly in) because i might want to add a spur in a kitchen, or even....use a mains CCTV camera outside. Consequently I have worked with this bloke for some experience (no touchy just learny) and frankly I have a far better grasp of 7621 and building regs, Inc P.

I have seen him do a lot of things that I would not. I think I should probably not work with him, but, my question is - is this a common situation?

I am very experienced and unqualified so I restrict what I do. But I suspect wht he is doing might actually be a Criminal Offence. At risk of being punched in the face by way of reply, what do you lot think?
Click to expand...

Is this a new British Standard and qualification we have to train for?
 
ian.settle1 said:
Is this a new British Standard and qualification we have to train for?
Click to expand...

Come on Ian... Dont you have a copy.
BS 7621:1993, ISO 9847:1992 - Method for calibrating field pyranom. Method for calibrating field pyranometers by comparison to a reference pyranometer
 
We have a so called experienced installer at work, I have to feed him info on calcs, tests, certs and all he says to me is that I'm good cause I keep up to date with the regs! Patronising or what. He can't use a multi tester either! How do these guys get work when I know there's good men on agency books?
 
tiffysparks said:
We have a so called experienced installer at work, I have to feed him info on calcs, tests, certs and all he says to me is that I'm good cause I keep up to date with the regs! Patronising or what. He can't use a multi tester either! How do these guys get work when I know there's good men on agency books?
Click to expand...
just bide your time fella...bide your time...
it all comes out in the wash...
 
post 3 sums it up, I am from that era,but went to college,but the sparks that teached me the trade had no schooling wat so ever well some of them, but they were bloody good tradesman!!, been out of contracting now a long time ago.Quals don't make you a good tradesman if you have no onsite experience or if you cant hold a screwdriver up the right way. and as for part p what a government money spinner that is,seen guys out there your handy man /kitchenfitter payed the money and boom part p installers qualified sparks don't make me laugh.
 
I've been in the trade for 24 years now, and honestly, when I first started the company employed over 20 electricians but had only one set of testers, which were held by the supervisor who never went on site.
testing was never done, and certificates were rarely seen by anyone.
even with the 16th ed testing was very limited where I worked, infact I'd say probably towards the end of the 90s testing started to be taken seriously in my experience.
now days, testing I everything, do It before and after you start, it's a very different world now.
The old guy probably has just stuck to the old school way of doing stuff, probably not the best person to learn from, and whilst there are time served sparks still sticking thier head in the sand then the trade as a whole cant complain too much about 18 day course wannabes, they probably won't be any less safe
 
Rampantchilli said:
I've been in the trade for 24 years now, and honestly, when I first started the company employed over 20 electricians but had only one set of testers, which were held by the supervisor who never went on site.
testing was never done, and certificates were rarely seen by anyone.
even with the 16th ed testing was very limited where I worked, infact I'd say probably towards the end of the 90s testing started to be taken seriously in my experience.
now days, testing I everything, do It before and after you start, it's a very different world now.
The old guy probably has just stuck to the old school way of doing stuff, probably not the best person to learn from, and whilst there are time served sparks still sticking thier head in the sand then the trade as a whole cant complain too much about 18 day course wannabes, they probably won't be any less safe
Click to expand...

Yep....I started as an apprentice in the late 70's and the only testing that was done regularly was an IR test of a new build before 'SEEBOARD' would connect.....or if switching on produced an undesirable 'Bang'!.....Real testing and box ticking came in between the 15th and 16th as I recall.
 
It's hard for me to imagine not testing, I was taught to test from day one, alright that was in 1998 but I used to test everything I did (and obviously still do!). I learned under the first edition of the 16th (yellow) and back then I remember seeing sparks still using the 15th. I remember spending 6 weeks with an old boy who never tested anything, although he did have a tester I think he only used it for fault finding. I remember him installing a ring circuit and just switching it on and plugging a hairdryer into each socket to see if it worked. So I suppose he did do some testing! ;)
 
I worked for a large firm in the 1990s and there were only about 4 sparks 1 being me that knew how to test out of about 40 pair LOL, and there were some great sparks on that company.
 
Agreed, not much testing was done in my era 33yrs ago,but we always did IR test and ring continuity,earth loop impedance.But then again it was always test and connect from the tizzy board anyway on new connections.
 
Rampantchilli said:
I've been in the trade for 24 years now, and honestly, when I first started the company employed over 20 electricians but had only one set of testers, which were held by the supervisor who never went on site.
testing was never done, and certificates were rarely seen by anyone.
even with the 16th ed testing was very limited where I worked, infact I'd say probably towards the end of the 90s testing started to be taken seriously in my experience.
now days, testing I everything, do It before and after you start, it's a very different world now.
The old guy probably has just stuck to the old school way of doing stuff, probably not the best person to learn from, and whilst there are time served sparks still sticking thier head in the sand then the trade as a whole cant complain too much about 18 day course wannabes, they probably won't be any less safe
Click to expand...
nope...
the `magic` RCD has taken care of that now...
hasn`t it?
 
7029 dave said:
Agreed, not much testing was done in my era 33yrs ago,but we always did IR test and ring continuity,earth loop impedance.But then again it was always test and connect from the tizzy board anyway on new connections.
Click to expand...
Most of the sparks had meggars (IR testers) due to the fact we installed plenty of pyro, but that was about it for virtually all of them LMAO.
 
your dead right on that mdj, we always IR mi cable, both ends on termination, then repeat on another piece we dropped in always!!, ahh memories:28:
 
MDJ said:
Most of the sparks had meggars (IR testers) due to the fact we installed plenty of pyro, but that was about it for virtually all of them LMAO.
Click to expand...

Not much to go wrong with other cables then, was there :blush5:

On pyro it was full IR tests and continuity and tape marking, as you indicate.
My AVO was for continuity and fault finding, but very rarely can I remember using a loop impedance tester prior to the 90's. And as for testing ELCB's, well, if it operated something was wrong......get the AVO and meggar out.
 
Oh come on its a typo.......geeze you are hard to please. I bet none of you lot are familiar with the nasogastric intubation of equines...and it was late...and i was scared to ask...now I wish I had kept quiet.

Do I get anyone on my side if I said i had to point out to him that RCD offers no overcurrent protection? Yea? Scary innit.
 
Its like the guy who walks into a warehouse and an entire row of low bays arent working. A 10 amp mcb is out.
Now no spark would turn that breaker on whilst his mate listens and watches for the pop bang wizz and says its that one.
Or the breaker stays in because the fault has blown out and all the low bays are working bar one.
Of course not. No one has done that. We all get our test kit out and spend an entire day finding the fault.
Why ??? well because your boss respects the fact that your doing the job properly doesnt he. He wants you to spend the whole day there and possibly a second day. Your a qualified sparks he would expect no less from you. And when you have found and rectified the fault (2 days) later he will pat you on the back and say well done, I'm proud of you.
 
My old boss use to fill in test Certs in the bar at his cricket club in the evening then sign my name on them even though the job hadn't even seen a test kit. The only tester we had on site was our trusty martindale 3 neon socket tester and a RS 2 probe voltage / continuity tester. We weren't allowed to use the test kit incase it got damaged as it was so expensive. There was no such thing as calibration either. I'm glad he's retired!
 
Sparkytlec said:
My old boss use to fill in test Certs in the bar at his cricket club in the evening then sign my name on them even though the job hadn't even seen a test kit. The only tester we had on site was our trusty martindale 3 neon socket tester and a RS 2 probe voltage / continuity tester. We weren't allowed to use the test kit incase it got damaged as it was so expensive. There was no such thing as calibration either. I'm glad he's retired!
Click to expand...

It's a good job the families of all those who have lost loved ones over the last few years due to this kind of practice don't read these forums. People like your old boss are the worst kind of criminal in my eyes.
 
Now, I'm respectful of 'old school'. Old school built most of this country back together after the war, and through the decades after and nearly all of us see, live and breath old school work everyday.
But times change, don't they? Old school also used to drive home without a seatbelt after Friday night at the pub, eat a fry-up every morning, drag a woodbine every ten minutes, let the kids roam out till dark eating choccy..... and so on. Technology, understanding and education all move on. My very first mobile phone is now a museum exhibit (science museum really do have one on display!) ...... why am I not still using it?
 
Rockingit said:
Now, I'm respectful of 'old school'. Old school built most of this country back together after the war, and through the decades after and nearly all of us see, live and breath old school work everyday.
But times change, don't they? Old school also used to drive home without a seatbelt after Friday night at the pub, eat a fry-up every morning, drag a woodbine every ten minutes, let the kids roam out till dark eating choccy..... and so on. Technology, understanding and education all move on. My very first mobile phone is now a museum exhibit (science museum really do have one on display!) ...... why am I not still using it?
Click to expand...

I remember roaming 'till dark but can't remember eating all that choccy....the odd apple maybe, nicked from a tree in one of the nice gardens. :drool5:
 
I'm Glad things have moved on and improved, as mentioned in my previous post I was able to test my Jobs on the company I worked for in the nineties and tested everyone else's, and surprisingly found lots of faults LOL, times change and rightly so, think about Health and safety in the 70s? or lack of it and then what it is like today.
 
Times have moved on tis true. Some for the better, some not.
The pressure put on sparkies to take short cuts as always been there. And driven by the bosses after a quick turn around and fast buck.
How many times have we arrived on a new contact to find H&S, PPE, site induction, paperwork that crosses T's and dots the I's taking top priority.

And how quickly all that is forgotten as the contract comes to a close. With penalty clauses calling for a thousand pounds a day.
Off come the hard hats. In comes all that high level access gear that was banned on site, ladders, platforms. 3 or 4 trades scrabbling in a small room to get there bit finished.
And then surprise surprise an accident happens.
At the end of the day, everyone wants to be seen doing the right thing provided it doesnt cost to much money.
 
There is, and always will be, old fellas who's arrogance stop them learning anything new, just as there will always be young fellas who think they know everything because they've sat in a classroom for a few months. It's the way it is. What you have to do is do what you know is right, and just regard them as the fools they are.
 
I remember about 30 years ago working in a massive scampi production plant. We were installing supplies to machines and a bloke in his late 40's came working on site sorting problems. He was a brilliant engineer, really clever and quick with any electrical problem. I found him one day, working alone, about 30ft up a ladder, pulling all sorts of live cables in a trunking. 'just getting the job done quick' was his explanation.
Never saw him again but I heard that he died on the job of a heart attack a few months later. A bit of a cover up as regards the full details but it goes to show, it CAN happen to the brilliant ones.
 
ipf said:
I remember about 30 years ago working in a massive scampi production plant. We were installing supplies to machines and a bloke in his late 40's came working on site sorting problems. He was a brilliant engineer, really clever and quick with any electrical problem. I found him one day, working alone, about 30ft up a ladder, pulling all sorts of live cables in a trunking. 'just getting the job done quick' was his explanation.
Never saw him again but I heard that he died on the job of a heart attack a few months later. A bit of a cover up as regards the full details but it goes to show, it CAN happen to the brilliant ones.
Click to expand...

That's sad to hear
 
rocker said:
There is, and always will be, old fellas who's arrogance stop them learning anything new, just as there will always be young fellas who think they know everything because they've sat in a classroom for a few months. It's the way it is. What you have to do is do what you know is right, and just regard them as the fools they are.
Click to expand...

Very well said.
Classroom or out on the job. Young or old. You will NEVER know it all. And you are NEVER to old to learn.
For those old uns who think they know more than the younger guys, think again !!
I am 60 this year, and have often gained useful knowledge from those many years my junior.
At the same time I have often been thanked by those I have helped out.
Its not a competition to those of us who take pride in our trade.
Respect is something you have to earn.
Arrogance and a know it all attitude will leave you with few friends, and little respect.
 
baldsparkies said:
Very well said.
Classroom or out on the job. Young or old. You will NEVER know it all. And you are NEVER to old to learn.
For those old uns who think they know more than the younger guys, think again !!
I am 60 this year, and have often gained useful knowledge from those many years my junior.
At the same time I have often been thanked by those I have helped out.
Its not a competition to those of us who take pride in our trade.
Respect is something you have to earn.
Arrogance and a know it all attitude will leave you with few friends, and little respect.
Click to expand...

Ditto all the way!!
 

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