Bathroom Extractor Fan Problem...

[Billy Whizz]

Hi all,

Recently replaced single bathroom ceiling rose with four downlighters. All works great.

Added an in-line bathroom fan (with timer) in the standard fashion using the switched live (SL) from the light switch, in accordance with provided wiring diagrams and fitted labels.

Fan now runs as soon as power is applied from the CU through the isolator, with no on/off control when the light switch is operated. However, at the same time the lights ARE switched correctly.

So, SL & L connections swapped on the fan, finally controllable by the switch. But now there's no fan run-on regardless of timer adjuster position!

Replacement fan from supplier (manufactured 8 months apart according to the QC sticker) is doing exactly the same thing as the first!

Before I fire off at them and get it all refunded can anyone see something I've missed?

Thanks & best regards,

BW

 

[Lee42]

Can you send a picture of youre connections

 

[Billy Whizz]

Whoops! I knew I'd forgotten to add something...

Lighting wiring removed from junction box to make it easier to view.

 

[Billy Whizz]

Used this diagram...

 

[Lee42]

Can you send a picture of youre connections

 

[Lee42]

Sorry just seen them

 

[telectrix]

deleted

 

[Lee42]

Well that wirring looks horrendous.
No cpc connected single insulation showing, no identification of conductors. The list goes on. (Im guessing u are no electrician)

 

[Lee42]

Are youre connections in back of fan isolator ok

Sounds like there is no permanent live to the fan if it is not over running. If there is one when the light is turned off the fan is faulty

 

[telectrix]

i'd be inclined to get the fan bench tested. wire it on a plug and flex.using the cpc of the flex as a S/L ( just for testing, of course). and dab the S/L on to imitate the switch. L, N.SL. see if it works then. if not, it's a duff fan.

oop s. post made before seeing pics. get an electrician in.

 

[westward10]

What is the section of bell wire doing.

 

[ED17]

What's the white cable that looks like bellwire doing?

 

[Billy Whizz]

No Lee42, I am not a professional and I would never profess to be one. This is a DIY forum after all... ;-)

And I'm working with what the previous owner left me. If you could explain your CPC, single insulation and conductor identification comments I'm sure I can also rectify these issues.

Yes, the connections in the back of the isolator are good. While troubleshooting I also wired the fan directly to the junction box to confirm the isolator wasn't faulty.

Having already got the fan operating in a switchable configuration (by swapping the marked L & SL at the fan) I'm now curious as to why I've had to do this.

Telectrix,

Bench test is an option but I'm highly suspicious that two different units seem to be faulty in exactly the same way.

Best regards,

BW

 

[telectrix]

What's the white cable that looks like bellwire doing?

is it the cpc by any chance?

 

[Billy Whizz]

Westward10/ED17,

The old ceiling rose (a strange and ancient metal thing) had it's case earth wire connected to it...

 

[telectrix]

And I'm working with what the previous owner left me.

if that's what he's left, i seriously suggest getting the whole installation inspected/tested. who know what other horror bodges he's left you.

cpc... circuit protective conductor ( earth wire )
single insulation... the outer sheat of the cable should be inside the J.box, not showing the colour (single) insulation outside
coductor ID... all conductors should show the colour they represent. e.g black used as live, should be sleeved brown. etc.

 

[westward10]

How have you connected the downlights. The cpcs or earths are the bare copper wires and they all need sleeving and connecting. I would strongly recommend you get an electrician in.

 

[westward10]

How have you connected the downlights. The cpcs or earths are the bare copper wires and they all need sleeving and connecting. I would strongly recommend you get an electrician in.

 

[Billy Whizz]

Assuming CPC is when you earth any installed fittings, there are no CPC connections on the fan assembly or on my new downlighters. Hence nothing now goes to the bellwire.

 

[Billy Whizz]

Just for entertainment, this was the archaic light fitting previously installed.

 

[Billy Whizz]

I am aware of the principle of earthing and that all earth's require Yellow/Green sleeving but how do I go about that when there is no provision on the fittings to connect such an earth?

Best regards,

BW

 

[westward10]

Any chance you can show how the downlights are connected.

 

[telectrix]

I am aware of the principle of earthing and that all earth's require Yellow/Green sleeving but how do I go about that when there is no provision on the fittings to connect such an earth?

Best regards,

BW

each cable should have it's cpc connected to it's feeder circuit and hence back to earth at the Consumer Unit. for class II fittings that don't require earthing, the cpc should just be terminated in a single connector or more usually, sleeved and folded back.at each fitting.

 

[Octopus]

Whether or not the CPC goes to the fitting, the CPC needs to be continuous to the end of the circuit.... that also applies to the cable to the fan.......

 

[Billy Whizz]

Telectrix,

Thank you for the explanations. Regarding CPC: None of the downlights have provision to connect a CPC/earth to them and neither does the fan. None of the diagrams supplied with the units showed it either.
Single insulation: The 3-core you refer in the picture is my temporary testing connection cable while trying to figure out how this problem. Once solved they will be shortened appropriately as I have done with the other wire in the J-Box.
Identification: Again, I am temporarily troubleshooting and will sleeve when the problem is successfully solved.

Westward10,

Standby, downlights photo coming...

Best regards,

BW

 

[Billy Whizz]

Westward10,

While I get a photo, this was diagram I used to wire the downlights.

Note: no CPC to the lights.

 

[telectrix]

why a push to break switch?

 

[westward10]

0.75 flex is inadequate for the purpose of fixed wiring.

 

[Billy Whizz]

Telectrix,

That's just a diagrammatic representation by whoever put it on the Internet. Rest assured I have a pull-cord switch like normal people... ;-)

Westward10,

Here are the pics, four downlighters connected in a J-Box, supplied by a switched live.

Telectrix,

As you can see, my single insulation is much better here... ;-) LOL!!

 

[Billy Whizz]

Pics...

 

[Billy Whizz]

Westward10,

Rest assured I used the diagram for layout purposes only, not for material guidance...

 

[telectrix]

Pics...

View attachment 37486

View attachment 37487

definitely an improvement. personally i'prefer wago boxes and connectors.so much more versatile. the connectors are push in, no screws to fart about with.

Wagobox-XL Junction Box in GREY for use with Wago 2273 and 221 terminals - https://www.connexbox.com/shop/wagobox-and-din-rail-enclosures/wagobox-xl-junction-box.html

 

[Billy Whizz]

Niiiice!! Do they do them small enough to mount on a joist? Kinda restricted on space which is why I used the J-Boxes in the pics.

 

[westward10]

Agreed it is an improvement.

 

[telectrix]

they do smaller ones, but you need to consider how many cables/joints are going in it. the one i linked is only 120 x 115 ( milli thingies, not inches which is what i understand). don't matter if it overhangs a bit if you'r e not boarding.

Wagobox Junction Boxes in WHITE for use with Wago 773 and 222 terminals - https://www.connexbox.com/shop/wagobox-and-din-rail-enclosures/wagobox-junction-box-white.html

 

[Billy Whizz]

Anyway, pulling the thread back on target... ;-)

So, in summary:
1. Wired as per fan terminal labels it runs constantly, no switch control.
2. Reversing L & SL gives switch control but no timer.
3. My J-Box husbandry requires attention.
4. CPC has no effect on my fan defect.

If so, I therefore need to call the manufacturer and ask them:
1. Why is the L/SL labelled incorrectly?
2. How exactly do you activate the timer on the fan (as the instructions do not say).

Best regards,

BW

 

[Billy Whizz]

Thanks Telectrix.

 

[Lee42]

If you have a multimeter test between the line (brown) and neutral (grey) with the light switch on and switch line (black) and neutral at the fan. You should get 230v with both of them. Turn the light switch off. The switch line will be dead and you should still have 230v between the brown and neutral.
If that is the case then it has to be a faulty fan.

 

[Billy Whizz]

Thanks Lee42.

Kids are in bed now so stumbling around in the loft will have to wait until the morning.

However, even before I put a multimeter on it have I not already proved both line and switched line voltages? If wired as per the installation diagram and fan labels, the fan runs constantly as soon as the CU is turned on, regardless of light switch position and/or if I operate the light switch (so line voltage must be present). But at the same time the lights turn on and off as commanded with the same light switch (therefore switched line voltage must also be available).

The more I look at it the more it seems like a fault with the fan. But for it to be happening with both supplied fans seems rather strange...

 

[telectrix]

didn't realise they had bathrooms in Luton. thought it were outside bog and a tin tub hanging on a nail between saturdays.

 

[Billy Whizz]

Oooh, Scouser got jokes... PMSL!!

I'm actually a displaced Essex Boy, but regardless, you seem to have us all confused with Yorkshire...

 

[telectrix]

essex? that's even worse. they bathe in the estuary there. it's the floating turds from london sewers give then the fake tans.

 

[Billy Whizz]

Nice! But the turds are brown, fake tan is orange...

 

[westward10]

Why on earth have to gone to Luton.

 

[Lee42]

Thanks Lee42.

Kids are in bed now so stumbling around in the loft will have to wait until the morning.

However, even before I put a multimeter on it have I not already proved both line and switched line voltages? If wired as per the installation diagram and fan labels, the fan runs constantly as soon as the CU is turned on, regardless of light switch position and/or if I operate the light switch (so line voltage must be present). But at the same time the lights turn on and off as commanded with the same light switch (therefore switched line voltage must also be available).

The more I look at it the more it seems like a fault with the fan. But for it to be happening with both supplied fans seems rather strange...

Its not something straight forward like the over run timer set to max. Some fans can over run for along time.

 

[Billy Whizz]

I should have put Bedfordshire really. I'm not actually in Luton but it is the closest big town to my village. Convenient mid-point between work and family.

 

[Billy Whizz]

No Lee42, when in the switched configuration the fan stops as soon as the light switch is turned off, regardless of timer position.

 

[Lee42]

No Lee42, when in the switched configuration the fan stops as soon as the light switch is turned off, regardless of timer position.

But in the other configuration u said the fan ran constantly. Could that of been because the timer was set to max making it seem the fan ran constantly.
Just a thought.
I have been given faulty fans before, but to get two in a row is very unlucky

 

[Billy Whizz]

Correct Lee42, originally it ran as soon as the CU was turned on. But with the light switch off it should never have started, surely? Any timer should only kick in when an "on" light is turned off?

Bloody confusing...

 

[Billy Whizz]

I wonder if it runs on initial application of line power to set the timer? Let it run to cut out then maybe the switched control will work? Might try that while I'm on the inevitable phone "hold" tomorrow...