Discuss bizarre coal burner system in the Central Heating Systems area at ElectriciansForums.net

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on a job doing a bathroom and the womans asked me to have a look at her heating system.
its a coal burner. ive never worked on one of these so im not sure how its supposed to work.
im very experienced with central heating systems in general though.

right so here it is.
main fuse supplies a pipe stat that feeds another pipe stat that feeds the motor/switch live.
its all seems very simple however. to get each pipe stat to make the link, it requires "turning down"
eg. setting them to 10degrees will turn them on, but setting to 90degrees will turn them off?
am i missing something here? anybody know how this is supposed to work?
 
Are they to prevent the water boiling thus possible pressure build-up ?

Is one a frost stat and the other a high temp stat or they both set the same?
 
i imagine yes they are there to act as the boilers stat to regulate the water and stop it boiling like a big kettle. They both look the same. They are located under a kitchen worktop partially boxed in, not very good access, i have access to the junction box though
 
why would there need to be a frost stat? if its in doors?
Sub zero temp's are not exclusive to outdoors although not the issue it used to be before well insulated houses came along, you provide little info so it was just a suggestion, without any kind of background to its age, the plumbing etc
 
im findinng it hard to explain the actual problem because i dont understand how the system works. I keep thinking about the pipe stats, ive never came across a stat that when you turn it up it clicks off.

the plot does thicken though, the woman says that the coal burner was replaced by a heating company within the last year, including around 13 re-visits to the job to try and sort it out.
The system has no zones. Hot water is only on when heating is on.
The pipe stats are located on 2 pipes next to pump/wiring centre
The immersor does not work because it is connected to a fuse box that is no longer connected to mains

Questions i'd like to know the answers to are;
1. What is the main purpose of the pipes that the stats are connected to? (flow? return? etc)
2. Why do these stats not work in the conventional manner?
3. What is the usual way of wiring a coal burning boiler?
4.Has anybody got a drawing?
 
Sounds like a poor design to start with for general functionality maybe your tasked to resolve a problem which comes down to poor design if it has never worked since been fitted.
 
You will have to work out what the pipes are doing yourself.

I suspect they are working as a high limit to prevent overheating of something, probably the cylinder.
There will presumably be other controls in the system to control the pump?
 
yes dave i think i understand what you mean, i definetly think that the intended design of this sytem is one which these pipe stats or at least one of them regulates the temperature of the water in the pipes much like the stats that are built into modern day combis etc.

There are however, no other controls in the system. No timer, no valves, no other stats
it definetly just goes:

mains>pipestat1>pipestat2>pump/switchwire
 
what if i redesigned it?

Do you think it would work if i pulled out all the wiring ,started again by fitting new pipe stats to the flow/return pipes(both set at 60degrees).
and linking these into a 2 channel programmer/room stat/cyliner stat?, kinda like a conventional system without a valve?
 
I worked on something that sounds similiar, it was an old farm house where the Rayburn had been converted to burn heating oil. The cylinder stat controlled the pump as in a normal coal fired system and I had 2 stats which I was unsure of , a plumber I worked with repaired it and his explanation was that it was to stop cold water returning to the heat exchanger and causing rusting of said heat exchanger. 10 years ago so can't remember the details. Don't know if that's much help.
 
I worked on something that sounds similiar, it was an old farm house where the Rayburn had been converted to burn heating oil. The cylinder stat controlled the pump as in a normal coal fired system and I had 2 stats which I was unsure of , a plumber I worked with repaired it and his explanation was that it was to stop cold water returning to the heat exchanger and causing rusting of said heat exchanger. 10 years ago so can't remember the details. Don't know if that's much help.

This helps me a bit because i suppose this is the intended purpose of the pipe stats, i'll now need to think about it a wee bit. thanks though
 
right heres what im thinking so far.....

Say we set the pipe stat on the flow to 60degrees, its should want to heat that water to a minimum of 60 and turn off when it reaches temperature.
This water then flows up through the radiators and comes back on the return pipe.

Bare with me i'm still struggling..

Where does the water of the return pipe go to?
Does it just go back through the heat exchanger?

If it is a bad thing that cold water goes back to the heat exchanger then how does a stat prevent this from happeing?
theres no valve to stop it
 
right heres what im thinking so far.....

Say we set the pipe stat on the flow to 60degrees, its should want to heat that water to a minimum of 60 and turn off when it reaches temperature.
This water then flows up through the radiators and comes back on the return pipe.

Bare with me i'm still struggling..

Where does the water of the return pipe go to?
Does it just go back through the heat exchanger?

If it is a bad thing that cold water goes back to the heat exchanger then how does a stat prevent this from happeing?
theres no valve to stop it

A high limit thermostat should be fitted to the gravity flow pipe close to the boiler and set at 90°C. This should override any pump control, switching the pump on and dissipating any excess heat around the radiator circuit.
To prevent boiler corrosion due to condensation it is necessary to maintain the return water temperature above 45°C. This can be achieved by the use of a LOW LIMIT thermostat on the return pipe from the hot water cylinder, close to the boiler. The thermostat should make on temperature rise, preventing the circulating pump from operating until the gravity circuit is up to temperature.
 
A high limit thermostat should be fitted to the gravity flow pipe close to the boiler and set at 90°C. This should override any pump control, switching the pump on and dissipating any excess heat around the radiator circuit.
To prevent boiler corrosion due to condensation it is necessary to maintain the return water temperature above 45°C. This can be achieved by the use of a LOW LIMIT thermostat on the return pipe from the hot water cylinder, close to the boiler. The thermostat should make on temperature rise, preventing the circulating pump from operating until the gravity circuit is up to temperature.

so do mean, the first stat allows the water to heat up to 90 then switched the pump on.
The water then flows through the heating system/hot water pipes and returns through a pipe that has another stat on it.
If the return water is below 45 degrees it turns pump off?
 
e-energyinstaller.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/boiler-stove-diagram.jpg

been having a look through some drawings via the magic of internet.
I think this looks like the system being described by some people on here but without a low limit stat on the gravity return?
Can anyone verify this?
Im probably not going to try and fix this womans heating system, ive agreed to wire her immersor back im still wanting to try and understand this system.
 
what if i redesigned it?

No-one should be messing around with solid fuel heating and or controls unless they fully understand the consequences of getting it wrong.
Getting it wrong can cause an explosion.

Gas and oil boilers stop producing heat when the power goes off.
A solid fuel boiler keeps producing heat even when the power is off, until the fuel runs out.
 
i know ive kinda been thinking im a bit out of my depth here, dont think im the guy to fix this thing for her.
You think i should even hold off on putting the immersor back into play for her?
hold off as in dont touch it? run far far away? hide under the bed?
 
i know ive kinda been thinking im a bit out of my depth here, dont think im the guy to fix this thing for her.
You think i should even hold off on putting the immersor back into play for her?
hold off as in dont touch it? run far far away? hide under the bed?

Or maybe do the sensible thing and take the opportunity to learn about a system you are unfamiliar with.

A little research should reveal plenty of books and other documents on the subject
 
yes of course i would like to learn more about this system for future reference.
If it is indeed a system much like the one in the drawing in the link i posted then what im thinking is why does this one have 2 pipe stats?
Why does it even need a "high limit" stat?
Surely its a redundant?
And that it should function in the same way if it only had the "low limit" pipe stat on the return?
 
yes of course i would like to learn more about this system for future reference.
If it is indeed a system much like the one in the drawing in the link i posted then what im thinking is why does this one have 2 pipe stats?
Why does it even need a "high limit" stat?
Surely its a redundant?
And that it should function in the same way if it only had the "low limit" pipe stat on the return?

surprised at some of the replies to this thread.

This sort of system was very common years ago but thankfully rare now. A solid fuel boiler cannot be switched off like gas or oil,as long as it is lit it will continue to heat. For this reason it must be connected to an unrestricted gravity loop which must be vented. The loop generally is the indirect coil in the HW cylinder. A solid fuel boiler in full flight will heat a hot tank in no time,if no water is being drawn off it will heat to the point where it will boil. This is normal and the expanding water and steam simply vents out into the cold header tank in the loft. The heating is simply a pumped flow and return. The purpose of the low limit stat is to prevent the pump running if the pipe temperature is too low and pumping cold water around the system. The high limit stat is vital, remember there is nothing to prevent boiler water temperature reaching boiling point,if this was pumped round the heating circuit radiators would reach a dangerous temperature, the high limit stat is there to switch off the pump if the flow temp becomes dangerously high.

The obvious problem with the system is the danger of unrestricted rise in water temp which can result in boiling water from the taps....not good with kids and elderly,or anyone for that matter. Which is why you don't see them much these days.
 
surprised at some of the replies to this thread.

This sort of system was very common years ago but thankfully rare now. A solid fuel boiler cannot be switched off like gas or oil,as long as it is lit it will continue to heat. For this reason it must be connected to an unrestricted gravity loop which must be vented. The loop generally is the indirect coil in the HW cylinder. A solid fuel boiler in full flight will heat a hot tank in no time,if no water is being drawn off it will heat to the point where it will boil. This is normal and the expanding water and steam simply vents out into the cold header tank in the loft. The heating is simply a pumped flow and return. The purpose of the low limit stat is to prevent the pump running if the pipe temperature is too low and pumping cold water around the system. The high limit stat is vital, remember there is nothing to prevent boiler water temperature reaching boiling point,if this was pumped round the heating circuit radiators would reach a dangerous temperature, the high limit stat is there to switch off the pump if the flow temp becomes dangerously high.

The obvious problem with the system is the danger of unrestricted rise in water temp which can result in boiling water from the taps....not good with kids and elderly,or anyone for that matter. Which is why you don't see them much these days.

you make sense mate, ive got a good idea how it works now, but without a good knowledge of plumbing ive decided to leave it alone. The company that put it in have obviously struggled with the task, so im not willing to trust that they have installed the necassary fail-safes. Without tearing the whole place apart, i cant be sure what pipe is what. I cant verify anything theyve done. Ive said to the customer and she understands. Back away without a bad move on my conscience
 
surprised at some of the replies to this thread.

This sort of system was very common years ago but thankfully rare now. A solid fuel boiler cannot be switched off like gas or oil,as long as it is lit it will continue to heat. For this reason it must be connected to an unrestricted gravity loop which must be vented. The loop generally is the indirect coil in the HW cylinder. A solid fuel boiler in full flight will heat a hot tank in no time,if no water is being drawn off it will heat to the point where it will boil. This is normal and the expanding water and steam simply vents out into the cold header tank in the loft. The heating is simply a pumped flow and return. The purpose of the low limit stat is to prevent the pump running if the pipe temperature is too low and pumping cold water around the system. The high limit stat is vital, remember there is nothing to prevent boiler water temperature reaching boiling point,if this was pumped round the heating circuit radiators would reach a dangerous temperature, the high limit stat is there to switch off the pump if the flow temp becomes dangerously high.

The obvious problem with the system is the danger of unrestricted rise in water temp which can result in boiling water from the taps....not good with kids and elderly,or anyone for that matter. Which is why you don't see them much these days.


...At last...well said.

We do not know what system this is,or how it is or should be functioning,but it strikes me it does not have any fail-safe design.

You cannot have pumps and stats controlling possible uncontrolled or unwanted build up of heat.

This should be "designed in",BEFORE any additional features. Even with the gradual acceptance of functions such as dumping and quenching,as extra fail-safes,they never trump sound, basic hydrodynamics.

I have come across many systems,where pumps have been flung in,due to the lack of knowledge,willingness and money,to fit pipework to falls,etc.

Usually,it is Tarquin's mother and father,who see a splendid AGA at the Ideal Home Expo,and they brow-beat the 3rd plumber along,to vascular surgeon it to the same pipework the Glow-worm used, for the last thirty years...then wonder why nobody can make it reliable.

True story...two years back,a good mate of mine,and a quality gas engineer,got involved with a couple similar to ^,asked me to bob down to view their Rayburn boiler set-up,two heads being better than one,even if they are sheeps' heads...gave him the bad news...he passed it on...customer said "can't be true...we have spent £8000..." Nowt came of it.

One year later,another pal got a call,to install a posh feature wood-stove,in a conservatory,at the same property,got asked about wet systems,and said he knew someone...so,back i went...

Lady of the house arrived back,an hour into my investigation,which was 55 minutes after noticing that nothing had changed,she asked me what i was there for...i told her "Getting paid twice,for the same thing..."

I have yet to receive, one single Christmas card from her...:disappointed:
 

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