BS 1363 socket for EV charger - what kind of RCD?

[AJshep]

The manufacturer of the car will specify what type of RCD is required.
Usually its a A type for anything up to 32amp. With larger and 3 phase charging point usually require a B type RCD.

If you using a 13amp socket I'd protect it by a A type RCD the charging lead will have a inline RCD too.

 

[westward10]

Check the socket specs

It is a standard 1363 socket.

 

[netblindpaul]

Is it suitable for ev charging then?

 

[AJshep]

You can charge a Tesla from a 13amp socket my friend has one but I believe it took him around 24 hours to fully charge the car

I installed a IP65 32amp interlocked socket for him with a Separate earth electrode.
The data sheet from Tesla specified a A type RCD.

 

[netblindpaul]

Not all BS 1363-2 socket outlets are suitable for EV charging.
BS 7671 Sect 722:
722.55 Other equipment
722.55.101 Socket-outlets and connectors
722.55.201.1 Each a.c. charging point shall incorporate:

1. (i) one socket-outlet complying with BS 1363-2 where the manufacturer approves its suitability for use, or...

BS 1363-2:2016
1 Scope
...
Additional requirements are included for socket-outlets suitable for electric vehicle charging.
...

 

[Strima]

So ideally the EV charger plug top should be a suitable RCD type and not the building circuit protection?

 

[Selfmade]

The manufacturer of the car will specify what type of RCD is required.
Usually its a A type for anything up to 32amp. With larger and 3 phase charging point usually require a B type RCD.

If you using a 13amp socket I'd protect it by a A type RCD the charging lead will have a inline RCD too.

Thanks, this starts to make more sense! So the charger incorporates a (presumably type B) RCD, and a type A is installed in the circuit for a socket routinely used for charging as an extra precaution.

I think I will quote assuming type A, but tell my customer that I've made some assumptions and will need to verify these prior to confirming the price and commencing work.

 

[Selfmade]

The manufacturer of the car will specify what type of RCD is required.
Usually its a A type for anything up to 32amp. With larger and 3 phase charging point usually require a B type RCD.

If you using a 13amp socket I'd protect it by a A type RCD the charging lead will have a inline RCD too.

Thanks, this starts to make more sense! So the charger incorporates a (presumably type B) RCD, and a type A is installed in the circuit for a socket routinely used for charging as an extra precaution.

I think I will quote assuming type A, but tell my customer that I've made some assumptions and will need to verify these prior to confirming the price and commencing work.

 

[Selfmade]

1. (i) one socket-outlet complying with BS 1363-2 where the manufacturer approves its suitability for use, or...

...

I took that to mean 'where the manufacturer of the vehicle/charger approves the use of a BS 1363-2 socket', not 'where the socket manufacturer approves the use of the socket for car charging'. This has been removed from the 18th ed. which perhaps supports my interpretation? After all, why would a charger be made with a BS1363 plug if the manufacturer did not approve its use with a BS1363 socket? Perhaps the IET realized this and decided to take it out.

BS 1363-2:2016
1 Scope
...
Additional requirements are included for socket-outlets suitable for electric vehicle charging.
...

I don't have a copy of BS1363, so can't look up what the additional requirements are. I'm wondering if it might be DC rated switching, and if so whether an unswitched socket might be better. Probably something else to read around.

 

[buzzlightyear]

Type A RCD on electric vehicle charging - https://www.electriciansforums.co.uk/threads/type-a-rcd-on-electric-vehicle-charging.87377/

 

[Selfmade]

So ideally the EV charger plug top should be a suitable RCD type and not the building circuit protection?

This would seem to me to make a lot more sense. I mean none of us know what will be invented in 50 years time and plugged into the sockets we are fitting now. So surely the onus should be on the charger manufacturers to make them safe to use with the sockets that are dimensionally compatible with the plugs they are fitting

 

[AJshep]

@Selfmade Im only going on Tesla, I was helping out a friend as the Tesla was a new company car, I havnt done the course but im aware of the different types of RCD so got my friend to email Tesla for specifications.
They emailed a sheet which specified I needed a A type RCD for 230v 32amp charging, which they refered two as "type 2 charging"
Rapid charging which was a 32amp 3 phase required a B type RCD.
The car came with pre made leads. 16 amp and 32 amp these had inline RCD on the lead.
It also came with a 16 to 13amp adaptor similar to shown in the picture i googled below.


This is the only experience I have !


This artical from the IET probably explains RCDs in more depth. Someone posted this here last year.
RCDs: everything an electrician should know - https://electrical.----------/wiring-matters/issues/68/rcds-everything-an-electrician-should-know/

 

[netblindpaul]

I took that to mean 'where the manufacturer of the vehicle/charger approves the use of a BS 1363-2 socket', not 'where the socket manufacturer approves the use of the socket for car charging'. This has been removed from the 18th ed. which perhaps supports my interpretation? After all, why would a charger be made with a BS1363 plug if the manufacturer did not approve its use with a BS1363 socket? Perhaps the IET realized this and decided to take it out.


I don't have a copy of BS1363, so can't look up what the additional requirements are. I'm wondering if it might be DC rated switching, and if so whether an unswitched socket might be better. Probably something else to read around.

The requirement in BS 1363-2 is that the socket must carry the required elevated levels of current for a prolonged period without showing any deterioration, and that it must do this for many more cycles of current than a "normal" socket, and must thus be marked /EV on the rear.
A "normal" BS 1363-2 socket outlet of any form without /EV would not be acceptable for use for EV charging, and would thus be used outside of it's design criteria. Thus outside the scope of it's product approval.

Oh, by the way it has not, been taken out, it has been aligned with BS 1363 as follows:
722.55 Other equipment
722.55.101 Socket-outlets and connectors
722.55.101.0.201.1 Each AC charging point shall incorporate:

1. (i) one socket-outlet complying with BS 1363-2 marked ‘EV’ on its rear and, except where there is no possibility of confusion, a label shall be provided on the front face or adjacent to the socket-outlet or its enclosure stating: ‘suitable for electric vehicle charging’, or...

Not many would have a copy of BS 1363-2, which is why I posted the quote from it for you!
The work I mostly do now means I have to have access to hundreds of standards and 1363-2 is one of those I need to have access to.

 

[Deleted account]

Thanks! Am aware of it, but can't justify the cost (yet). One day, for sure, but there may be a new edition by then...

If you can't justify the cost don't do the job.

 

[buzzlightyear]

so does not pug in a normal 13 amps socket with b type rcd then!

 

[Selfmade]

@Selfmade Im only going on Tesla, I was helping out a friend as the Tesla was a new company car, I havnt done the course but im aware of the different types of RCD so got my friend to email Tesla for specifications.
They emailed a sheet which specified I needed a A type RCD for 230v 32amp charging, which they refered two as "type 2 charging"
Rapid charging which was a 32amp 3 phase required a B type RCD.
The car came with pre made leads. 16 amp and 32 amp these had inline RCD on the lead.
It also came with a 16 to 13amp adaptor similar to shown in the picture i googled below.

View attachment 43819
This is the only experience I have !


This artical from the IET probably explains RCDs in more depth. Someone posted this here last year.
RCDs: everything an electrician should know - https://electrical.----------/wiring-matters/issues/68/rcds-everything-an-electrician-should-know/

Thanks for the very useful info, link, and picture! I might check with the customer if his car comes with a Commando plug. If it does, I might suggest installing a socket for this as the consensus seems to be that these cope better with the sustained high current (as one might expect).

 

[Selfmade]

The requirement in BS 1363-2 is that the socket must carry the required elevated levels of current for a prolonged period without showing any deterioration, and that it must do this for many more cycles of current than a "normal" socket, and must thus be marked /EV on the rear.
A "normal" BS 1363-2 socket outlet of any form without /EV would not be acceptable for use for EV charging, and would thus be used outside of it's design criteria. Thus outside the scope of it's product approval.

Oh, by the way it has not, been taken out, it has been aligned with BS 1363 as follows:
722.55 Other equipment
722.55.101 Socket-outlets and connectors
722.55.101.0.201.1 Each AC charging point shall incorporate:

1. (i) one socket-outlet complying with BS 1363-2 marked ‘EV’ on its rear and, except where there is no possibility of confusion, a label shall be provided on the front face or adjacent to the socket-outlet or its enclosure stating: ‘suitable for electric vehicle charging’, or...

Not many would have a copy of BS 1363-2, which is why I posted the quote from it for you!
The work I mostly do now means I have to have access to hundreds of standards and 1363-2 is one of those I need to have access to.

Thanks very much for this very useful information! Looks like I will be looking for an 'EV' marked socket or else a Commando socket.

 

[Selfmade]

If you can't justify the cost don't do the job.

As I understand it the CoP is not mandatory in the way British Standards are - in time I will buy it to help with best practice, but for now I just wanted advice on how to implement the relevant parts of BS 7671 in practice. Thanks for your input anyway.

 

[netblindpaul]

As I understand it the CoP is not mandatory in the way British Standards are - in time I will buy it to help with best practice, but for now I just wanted advice on how to implement the relevant parts of BS 7671 in practice. Thanks for your input anyway.

British Standards are not mandatory, HASAWA, & EAWR are the ones you need to worry about.

British Standards are just industry approved and written codes of practice, the EV CoP is just an industry body CoP, so neither are mandatory.

If you are being prosecuted then if there is an easy map to one of the statutory regulations in HASAWA or EAWR, then you'll be done under that, evidence that you were negligent would come from ACoP's (published by HSE), British Standards as guidance on minimum levels of what is required, then industry CoP's like the IET EV guide would be used to illustrate that which you should have done as a minimum as you are supposed to be competent and skilled in the area of work.

 

[Deleted account]

As I understand it the CoP is not mandatory in the way British Standards are .

The cop is non statutory the same as bs7671, but I have done the ev charger course and there are issues that need to be taken into account.
The reason I did the course was I was approached to fit a charger for a customer and I didn't know the extent of my ignorance.
Really pleased I took the course as there is so much more to ev installations than I thought.
Seriously please do the course first.

 

[buzzlightyear]

Seriously please do the course first

got any doc for the courses you could shire like how to do it .cash strapped me thinks .

 

[Selfmade]

Seriously please do the course first.

I'd certainly be interested in the course if you can post any details?

I do think however that the existence of BS 7671 Section 722 suggests that this will suffice, at least for simple installations, as otherwise EV charging points would just be excluded from the scope and reference made to the code of practice.

If I was doing a Mode 2, 3 or 4 charging points, or frequently being asked to do Mode 1 ones, I'd certainly be buying the CoP and maybe doing the course as well (maybe after making a judgement as to how well I was understanding the CoP).

 

[Selfmade]

Seriously please do the course first.

I'd certainly be interested in the course if you can post any details?

I do think however that the existence of BS 7671 Section 722 suggests that this will suffice, at least for simple installations, as otherwise EV charging points would just be excluded from the scope and reference made to the code of practice.

If I was doing a Mode 2, 3 or 4 charging points, or frequently being asked to do Mode 1 ones, I'd certainly be buying the CoP and maybe doing the course as well (maybe after making a judgement as to how well I was understanding the CoP).

 

[Selfmade]

got any doc for the courses you could shire like how to do it .cash strapped me thinks .

More a question of the shear number of courses one could pay for, and worse, schemes one could join. You know there's no end to the people who'll happily take you money to open up a supposed new market. To justify the cost you'd have to specialize and then what happens when gov decides to pay the DNOs to fit charging points for everyone and the rug is pulled from under ones feet. You have to be so careful what you invest in. I (in a way sadly) never got into solar PV installation commercially because I qualified just after the feed in tariff was cut. Lots of people went out of business then, having no doubt invested thousands in training, books, and equipment.

 

[DPG]

It's a silly situation really. The socket you are installing could have anything plugged into it, and the car charger could be plugged into any socket in the house / garage / anywhere. Any device with a 13A plug should be capable of being used with any 13A socket. If not then problems are going occur at some point.

 

[Selfmade]

It's a silly situation really. The socket you are installing could have anything plugged into it, and the car charger could be plugged into any socket in the house / garage / anywhere. Any device with a 13A plug should be capable of being used with any 13A socket. If not then problems are going occur at some point.

Or maybe even any 13A plug or socket should be capable of handling a 13A load. But I suppose that's too much to expect of manufacturers these days

 

[Selfmade]

Or maybe even any 13A plug or socket should be capable of handling a 13A load. But I suppose that's too much to expect of manufacturers these days

Just imagining telling overseas car makers 'no you can't fit 13A plugs on your chargers as our 13A sockets can't handle 13A'. What a joke.

 

[Selfmade]

DNOs fit TN-C-S systems to save money so we have to add earth electrodes.

Charger manufacturer's presumably fit unreliable DC RCDs in the chargers so we have to fit additional ones in the installation.

Socket manufacturers make 13A sockets that can't handle 13A so we have to fit special ones marked 'EV' that don't even seem to be for sale yet.

And then people wonder why a new socket ends up costing £--- or £XXXX.

 

[Gavin John Hyde]

if you buy the rolec basic charger, that incorporates the socket, it also has the required rcd in it too, cost £88 on midselec for the charger wallpod, rolec are also the most convenient supplier of all the rcds required for ev chargers. yes its rebadged chint, but the quality has improved somewhat the last year or so. the rcds from rolec are about £30

 

[Selfmade]

if you buy the rolec basic charger, that incorporates the socket, it also has the required rcd in it too, cost £88 on midselec for the charger wallpod, rolec are also the most convenient supplier of all the rcds required for ev chargers. yes its rebadged chint, but the quality has improved somewhat the last year or so. the rcds from rolec are about £30

Thanks for the useful recommendation!

I do note however that the RCBO fitted in the charger is rated 10A not 13A. Personally I'd feel more inclined to fit Commando sockets if most EV chargers do come with the plugs - cheaper, and would even enable 16A charging. Just a thought.

 

[Gavin John Hyde]

Thanks for the useful recommendation!

I do note however that the RCBO fitted in the charger is rated 10A not 13A. Personally I'd feel more inclined to fit Commando sockets if most EV chargers do come with the plugs - cheaper, and would even enable 16A charging. Just a thought.

very few ev cars will draw the 13 amp on a standard socket, they detect what it is connected to and will limit the draw, you will be lucky to get above several amps on a standard socket. Hence why the rcd in the basic rolec is a 10 amp job