Commercial EIRC testing tips advice

[Gazthesparky]

Been asked to carry out an EIRC on a commercial shop unit. I haven't done any commercial EIRCs before so looking for a few pointers

I use too carry out EIRCs for the council I used to work for years ago this was domestic change of tenancy ones.

I haven't done this for a good few years so just wondering if anyone has any tips recommend any books to check out to brush up and refresh my brain.

I have my C&G 2391 and carry out EIC and minor works to cover installation work.

With this being a commercial premises does the EIRC involve testing the emergency lighting and any fire alarms or is it just the wiring to the lights and circuit that gets tested.

Is emergency light testing considered as an extra and additional to the EIRC should the customer wish to have that done.

cheers

 

[Pete999]

Been asked to carry out an EIRC on a commercial shop unit. I haven't done any commercial EIRCs before so looking for a few pointers

I use too carry out EIRCs for the council I used to work for years ago this was domestic change of tenancy ones.

I haven't done this for a good few years so just wondering if anyone has any tips recommend any books to check out to brush up and refresh my brain.

I have my C&G 2391 and carry out EIC and minor works to cover installation work.

With this being a commercial premises does the EIRC involve testing the emergency lighting and any fire alarms or is it just the wiring to the lights and circuit that gets tested.

Is emergency light testing considered as an extra and additional to the EIRC should the customer wish to have that done.

cheers

I believe EM testing is a separate test

 

[Risteard]

What is an EIRC?

 

[Pete999]

What is an EIRC?

An electrical installation report condition, come on Risteard keep up

 

[Gazthesparky]

Whoops ‍My mistake should be EICR
Electrical Installation Condition Report

 

[MDJ]

Been asked to carry out an EIRC on a commercial shop unit. I haven't done any commercial EIRCs before so looking for a few pointers

I use too carry out EIRCs for the council I used to work for years ago this was domestic change of tenancy ones.

I haven't done this for a good few years so just wondering if anyone has any tips recommend any books to check out to brush up and refresh my brain.

I have my C&G 2391 and carry out EIC and minor works to cover installation work.

With this being a commercial premises does the EIRC involve testing the emergency lighting and any fire alarms or is it just the wiring to the lights and circuit that gets tested.

Is emergency light testing considered as an extra and additional to the EIRC should the customer wish to have that done.

cheers

But you have done some Commercial reports before?

 

[polo1]

Emergency lighting not included; fire alarm - include circuit up to spur.
Key to any EICR, but especially commercial, is to agree any limitations in advance with the customer e.g. any height limits, any circuits you cannot switch off; is it 100% of circuits; what % of accessories removed & visually inspected; specifically exclude things like fire, emerg lighting, intruder etc, etc.

 

[westward10]

To be honest domestic and commercial are fundamentally the same. A circuit is a circuit no matter where it is and the Regulations are not that much different. It may be an idea to get in a few hours before opening to do any essential circuits.

 

[Gazthesparky]

But you have done some Commercial reports before?

No never had the opportunity so hence asking for some advice and tips.

thanks for the tips.

The request I have had is to provide a price for providing a EICR on the shop unit. They said that they just wanted a price for the test and not carrying out any remedial that may be required.

my terms and conditions state that any certification will be provided once full payment has been received so I will state this in my quotation.

I guess if I find and unsatisfactory test and the certificate states this then I can just provide this once I have received payment.

Job done.

any other tips or advice?

cheers

 

[westward10]

Have you been to see it and know the quantity of circuits. Most modern tills need the router to be on which is often in the office so normally till point power and the office need to be done prior to opening. Check for last person out control circuits as this will need to be done prior to opening. Normally pretty straight forward once the crucial stuff is done.

 

[Flanders]

If its got a suspended ceiling its worth sticking your head above it to check it out some places will be wired on click rose system or bus bar , others will have been wired with a bow and arrow ☺

 

[MFS Electrical]

Been asked to carry out an EIRC on a commercial shop unit. I haven't done any commercial EIRCs before so looking for a few pointers

I use too carry out EIRCs for the council I used to work for years ago this was domestic change of tenancy ones.

I haven't done this for a good few years so just wondering if anyone has any tips recommend any books to check out to brush up and refresh my brain.

I have my C&G 2391 and carry out EIC and minor works to cover installation work.

With this being a commercial premises does the EIRC involve testing the emergency lighting and any fire alarms or is it just the wiring to the lights and circuit that gets tested.

Is emergency light testing considered as an extra and additional to the EIRC should the customer wish to have that done.

cheers

Guidance note 3 is invaluable

Emergency lighting testing is a whole different kettle of fish and not part of the eicr
Although a quick function check should be performed as per GN3 on functional testing but you can do that when you switch off for IR testing
the duration tests are definitely not part of an EICR
Whatch out for chokes and digital ballasts on fluros and possibly led drivers as most of them don’t like 500v and will have to be disconnected or tested L&N together to earth but if it’s only a small shop disconnection would be the best method and even if they do the capacitors in circuit can throw up dodgy readings
Other than that it’s pretty much the same.

 

[westward10]

Disconnect nothing, crack on with 500v testing to earth only although filtered extension leads may throw this so reduce to 250v to see if it clears it.

 

[MFS Electrical]

Disconnect nothing, crack on with 500v testing to earth only although filtered extension leads may throw this so reduce to 250v to see if it clears it.

I’ve never managed to get a clean IR with fluros in circuit although saying that I always find myself working in in places with many many thousands of them just last week we were testing a building with 250 in it (that was the smallest building on the site) thankfully they were all on Gregs I did try each circuit with them all connected and couldn’t get a clean IR so the apprentice was sent on his merry way to disconnect all of the Gregs and the reading came out at >999 Megohm as opposed to 0.00 Megohm when we first started I think there were somewhere in the region of 18 lights in most circuits.

 

[westward10]

I always view the fittings as part of the circuit on a Periodic.

 

[MFS Electrical]

I always view the fittings as part of the circuit on a Periodic.

So you don’t take the lamps out of pendants? Fluros out of circuit And still manage to get acceptable readings? Maybe I need to change my MFT??? The other thing to be aware of is most of the old thorn fittings say disconnect before insulation testing In my apprentice days I blew up a few 1970s era chokes testing an old school more modern kit doesn’t mind so much but still skews the readings quite a bit

 

[Toneyz]

Try to get past certificates/reports as in most cases no D.B. circuit charts or ways marked up. Don't be daunted by loads of boards break it down into one bit at a time.

 

[MFS Electrical]

Try to get past certificates/reports as in most cases no D.B. circuit charts or ways marked up. Don't be daunted by loads of boards break it down into one bit at a time.

Good point and even if it is marked up or is listed on the old cert don’t believe it make sure yourself nearly lost an apprentice because of that last month youd think after 2.5 years he’d know better

 

[westward10]

So you don’t take the lamps out of pendants? Fluros out of circuit And still manage to get acceptable readings? Maybe I need to change my MFT??? The other thing to be aware of is most of the old thorn fittings say disconnect before insulation testing In my apprentice days I blew up a few 1970s era chokes testing an old school more modern kit doesn’t mind so much but still skews the readings quite a bit

I have never blown anything up testing at 500v to earth and I disconnect nothing. I use a stand alone IR tester.

 

[Octopus]

They said that they just wanted a price for the test and not carrying out any remedial that may be required.

you are just quoting a price .............. Have you done a site visit?

Anyone who can quote for an EICR and any remedial work my have a better crystal ball than me!

 

[Gazthesparky]

you are just quoting a price .............. Have you done a site visit?

Anyone who can quote for an EICR and any remedial work my have a better crystal ball than me!

I haven’t quoted yet. I had a phone call and they asked for a price. I have gone back saying that lots need to be agreed ie limitations and such. Have said needs a site visit only then can a quote be provided.

They just wanted a price so we will wait and see

 

[Ian1981]

So you don’t take the lamps out of pendants? Fluros out of circuit And still manage to get acceptable readings? Maybe I need to change my MFT??? The other thing to be aware of is most of the old thorn fittings say disconnect before insulation testing In my apprentice days I blew up a few 1970s era chokes testing an old school more modern kit doesn’t mind so much but still skews the readings quite a bit

If you are connecting L-N together and testing to earth for IR testing,then it’s pointless to remove lamps.

 

[MFS Electrical]

If you are connecting L-N together and testing to earth for IR testing,then it’s pointless to remove lamps.

I stated that as the less preferable method though because you’re not really getting a true picture of the insulation resistance between line and nuetral

 

[Ian1981]

I stated that as the less preferable method though because you’re not really getting a true picture of the insulation resistance between line and nuetral

It would be extremely uneconomical and timely/costly to test directly L-N in anything larger than a domestic property and we are advised not to dismantle during eicr’s

 

[The Ghost]

The emergency lighting may be tested incidentally as sometimes it is on the same circuit as the lighting. I suppose you must agree with the client regards that. And it would of course be noted who agreed such a lim. But with loads of lims and IR testing between LN and PE the value of an EICR is less than it could be.

 

[MFS Electrical]

Watch out for chokes and digital ballasts on fluros and possibly led drivers as most of them don’t like 500v and will have to be disconnected or tested L&N together to earth but if it’s only a small shop disconnection would be the best method

Only if it’s a small shop like I said when your doing a hospital a school or similar disconnection just isn’t going to happen unless your apprentice annoys you one too many times

 

[westward10]

The emergency lighting may be tested incidentally as sometimes it is on the same circuit as the lighting. I suppose you must agree with the client regards that. And it would of course be noted who agreed such a lim. But with loads of lims and IR testing between LN and PE the value of an EICR is less than it could be.

IR tests on a Periodic between line/neutral are generally pointless and do not devalue an EICR. Test results make up a small part of any noted Codes.

 

[MFS Electrical]

IR tests on a Periodic between line/neutral are generally pointless and do not devalue an EICR. Test results make up a small part of any noted Codes.

I’m with @Vortigern on this if your doing an EICR you should really try to do it to the absolute best of your ability the regs ask for L-N tests so you should do them i am aware that they permit exceptions in some circumstances and allow you to test L&N to E but it’s always preferable to do the full test, otherwise what’s the point in ever doing the full test? I don’t think he means that it devalues it as in discredits it but when you carry out the EICR and test L&N to E then you can miss faults which are starting to develop deterioration etc etc so IMO the full test should be carried out where ever possible especially in situations where loads can readily be taken out of circuit.

 

[MFS Electrical]

I’d love some opinions on a vaguely related subject so we are carrying out in depth EICRs for a customer who has around 16 buildings on their site and many many DBs of course the usual -things added taken away no real meaningful legend to work from varying ages of equipment and varying quality of installs. Last Records were 1985 - I believe when most of the buildings were upgraded refurbed etc
Anyway we have come across thousands of circuits thousands of conduits and thousands of BS88-6 Fuses so far so good except when we attempt R1+R2 at the some of the multiple ring circuits after spending quite a while belling out and tracing we have discovered that many of the rings use conduits as CPCs-nothing wrong with that- but on some other parts of the ring there are CPCs and on some other parts (same ring)there are not so I’m thinking concealed JBs somewhere Zs readings are all spectacular so the conduits/CPCs/Parralell paths are providing good earths but and here’s the big but because of the situation with the CPCs and in most cases there are no CPCs at the DB for the rings so R1+R2 isn’t a viable option and because of the layout of the buildings and their use long wander R2 leads aren’t really a viable option either would it be acceptable for the circuits affected to be tested using the live test R1+R2 setting of the megger MFT 1720 and left at that ? We would of course note on the certificate that this was the method we used to conduct the tests on these particular circuits it just feels a little wrong if you know what I mean and not in a good way
I have been messing about with the setting and comparing it to readings obtained through traditional R1+R2 tests and it’s not that far away.
Or should we be looking for another method/pressing to use an R2 lead (roughly 550m though)

 

[Risteard]

Insulation testing between live conductors is wholly unrealistic for periodic inspection and testing (even domestic) and serves little purpose. You would be as likely to introduce a fault as find one.

 

[MFS Electrical]

Insulation testing between live conductors is wholly unrealistic for periodic inspection and testing (even domestic) and serves little purpose. You would be as likely to introduce a fault as find one.

Why do you think it would introduce a fault at 500V cables are designed to take IR testing in their stride for years upon years upon years? And why would it be unrealistic? Just because it takes longer?

 

[The Ghost]

As GN3 says at 3.10 on, it is not practical time wise to do IR between live conductors, more likely and useful between LN-E. However my ideal is to do so where practical. Don't get me wrong with 50 fluorescents at 4 m. height there is no way I am going to get up there and disconnect caps and tubes and then put it all back. No chance. But this would be a lim on the EICR. I think @Risteard is right about the chance of introducing a fault as when you dismantle etc. you may not put it back right or whatever. And of course dismantling is discouraged. I also agree with @westward10 that it makes up a small part of noted codes. Still it bugs me personally to leave out IR for L-N. despite the foregoing, it probably always will.

 

[Gazthesparky]

I have sent a response back to the customer asking for a price. I have said that it needs a site visit to assess the job fully. I haven't had a response back so i don't think ill hear from them but hey ho you win some you loose some

cheers for the advice and tips