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L

londonelec

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Hi there i am a new part p registered electrician with not so much experiance (just passed 2 weeks ago on a NIC 5 day course)

The problem is that i have come a house to fix a fuse board that has the RCD tripping but when i got there it was not split the whole house was RCD protected including the lights.

I am sure this is ok but i know that lights and bulbs can be a nusence for RCD and this is what is causing the trouble when bulbs are going.

So i am thinking and this is where the 17th might come in and im not 100% but i wanted to buy a 80amp 100ma time delayed RCD and put that in place and my question is would that work and also would that be 17th edition compliant ?

Thank you for any help i dont want to install a new baord even though it might make me money i would prefer to deal with the solution as it is.

Thank you for any help

Greg
 
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P

PAUL M

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #2
sorry mate its got to be 30mA according to page 59 17th regs.and when you say not split do you mean only 1 rcd for the lot.
 
I am sure this is ok but i know that lights and bulbs can be a nusence for RCD and this is what is causing the trouble when bulbs are going.
Lamps should never cause an RCD to trip when they blow - how could they? There is no L-N imbalance in that situation.
 
S

Shakey

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #4
Hi there i am a new part p registered electrician with not so much experiance (just passed 2 weeks ago on a NIC 5 day course)

The problem is that i have come a house to fix a fuse board that has the RCD tripping but when i got there it was not split the whole house was RCD protected including the lights.

I am sure this is ok but i know that lights and bulbs can be a nusence for RCD and this is what is causing the trouble when bulbs are going.

So i am thinking and this is where the 17th might come in and im not 100% but i wanted to buy a 80amp 100ma time delayed RCD and put that in place and my question is would that work and also would that be 17th edition compliant ?

Thank you for any help i dont want to install a new baord even though it might make me money i would prefer to deal with the solution as it is.

Thank you for any help

Greg
Like has already been said, a time delay would not be compliant.

And to satisfy 314.1 in the 17th edition, you would need to split the board anyway, with two 30ma RCd's, and possibly an RCBO as well, if your smoke detectors are coming off your lights, because then they cant be on the same RCD as sockets

if it is all of a 30mA at present, take a look at 314.1 anyway. If you had a lot of stuff plugged into your sockets, tv's dvd's sky etc etc, the culamitive leackage currents for all of them hits 30mA and pop goes the RCD, with no fault there

Thats why if you had two rings/radials for sockets they should be on seperate RCD's
 
P

PAUL M

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #5
so what your saying shakey is no smoke alarms on the same rcd as sockets which i understand for obvious reasons even though smoke alarms have battery back up,so how do you get on if your fitting a dual rcd board (which seems to be the norm given the price of rcbos) if you have two rings up and down ,you are going to have 1 ring on each rcd so how can you comply with no smokes on same rcd as sockets.
 
M

Mike P

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #6
Why don't you put an insulation tester across the whole lot and check where the fault is. putting a new board may get some of the circuits going but you are still going to have a fault on one of the circuits lighting or power. it could be a light fitting if it's metal especially if it's exterior.

Mike
 
D

DYCHE4230

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #7
so what your saying shakey is no smoke alarms on the same rcd as sockets which i understand for obvious reasons even though smoke alarms have battery back up,so how do you get on if your fitting a dual rcd board (which seems to be the norm given the price of rcbos) if you have two rings up and down ,you are going to have 1 ring on each rcd so how can you comply with no smokes on same rcd as sockets.
You can get 17th edition boards withdual rcds and a separate rcbo for the smoke alarm etc...
 
S

Spudmiester

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #9
Like has already been said, a time delay would not be compliant.

And to satisfy 314.1 in the 17th edition, you would need to split the board anyway, with two 30ma RCd's, and possibly an RCBO as well, if your smoke detectors are coming off your lights, because then they cant be on the same RCD as sockets

if it is all of a 30mA at present, take a look at 314.1 anyway. If you had a lot of stuff plugged into your sockets, tv's dvd's sky etc etc, the culamitive leackage currents for all of them hits 30mA and pop goes the RCD, with no fault there

Thats why if you had two rings/radials for sockets they should be on seperate RCD's

Had the culamitive leakage current fault in a house once, was an absolute pig to suss out, set off on a right wild goose chase.

Also if there are a few computers on at the same time, this would be my prime suspect, as computer power supplies have a certain ammount of earth leakage when running.
 
L

londonelec

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #10
cheers guys i did phone up NIC technical and they said the same things as you all about split loads.

Looks like i dont have a choice its a new CU, now to explain why its going to cost a fair few quid because i will need to test everything and find the problem as well as a new install.

am i also right in thinking that now i wont in future need to bond the bathrooms if i am using these new 17th edition CU's ?

PS ebay have 17th edition Hagers 10 way with MCB's and RCD's for 69 quid which i think is not bad.
 
S

stevie h

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #11
5 day course then your out fitting new CU,S , what is the industry coming too ........

Not having a go at you Greg , it just seems madness .
 
M

Micklane

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #12
5 day course - does this cover cu changes?.
I'd ask for my money back if you are not competent to fault find.
Try the Yeller Pages for Electrician - a proper one!
Regards
 
S

Shakey

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #13
cheers guys i did phone up NIC technical and they said the same things as you all about split loads.

Looks like i dont have a choice its a new CU, now to explain why its going to cost a fair few quid because i will need to test everything and find the problem as well as a new install.

am i also right in thinking that now i wont in future need to bond the bathrooms if i am using these new 17th edition CU's ?

PS ebay have 17th edition Hagers 10 way with MCB's and RCD's for 69 quid which i think is not bad.
bit more than that for supplementary bonding in bathrooms

No supplementary providing that:

all bathroom circuits on 30mA RCD

AND

meet their disconnection times

AND

all protective equipotential bonding is in place

any extraneous conductive paths in there are 'effectively connected' to the means of earthing/protective bonding (i.e. the MET)

'effectively connected' means 1667 ohms or less for a 30mA RCD

the effectively connected is a bit of a no brainer, because if it is an extraneous conductive path (i.e. copper all the way) it will be down to a few ohms, and if it is above 1667, chances are theres a bit of Hepworth in there, so it isnt extraneous anyway
 
L

londonelec

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #14
5 day course then your out fitting new CU,S , what is the industry coming too ........

Not having a go at you Greg , it just seems madness .
What about conclusion jumpers that is pure madness

And the fact that you are gay?

Oh wait that would be me jumping to conclusions about your sexuality and you cant be gay just because you post like one :)

Seriously your a moron i said i done a 5 day course and now i have not been in the industry for more than 5 days ?

Its people like you that give US (yes i am qualified electrician so i can safely say that) a bad rep you think that i am not as good as you because i have done a 5 day course.

I have a city and guids level 1,2,3 (and a btech national) in electronic system which is by far more complex than electrical installations.

But unfortunately fixing electronic equipment pays nothing and sitting at a work bench all day is boring.

****** i cant even be arsed to argue... this is why you give us a bad name because no one is good enough for you city and guilds muppets!
 
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G

Grae79

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #15
ahhhhhh....the calm before the storm
 
S

Shakey

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #16
What about conclusion jumpers that is pure madness

And the fact that you are gay?

Oh wait that would be me jumping to conclusions about your sexuality and you cant be gay just because you post like one :)

Seriously your a moron i said i done a 5 day course and now i have not been in the industry for more than 5 days ?

Its people like you that give US (yes i am qualified electrician so i can safely say that) a bad rep you think that i am not as good as you because i have done a 5 day course.

I have a city and guids level 1,2,3 (and a btech national) in electronic system which is by far more complex than electrical installations.

But unfortunately fixing electronic equipment pays nothing and sitting at a work bench all day is boring.

bollox i cant even be ***** to argue... this is why you give us a bad name because no one is good enough for you city and guilds muppets!
well said fella

i teach the EAL domestic installers course

people always go an about '5 day wonders'

We actually run the course over 7 days, and many of my students have been in the industry for donkeys.

but of course they are 'just' domestic installers and know nowt

my mate is the area engineer for the NIC

he has told me that if he gets problems doing annual assessments, it is always Approved Contractors, guys who turn up with two IR meters to do an installation, guys who dont even own a regs book, but with Domestic I Installers he is quite happy

tells you something dont it!
 
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S

stevie h

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #17
[LEFT said:
londonelec[/left];10654]What about conclusion jumpers that is pure madness

And the fact that you are gay?

Oh wait that would be me jumping to conclusions about your sexuality and you cant be gay just because you post like one :)

Seriously your a moron i said i do ne a 5 day course and now i have not been in the industry for more than 5 days ?

Its people like you that give US (yes i am qualified electrician so i can safely say that) a bad rep you think that i am not as good as you because i have done a 5 day course.

I have a city and
guids
level 1,2,3 (and a
btech
national) in electronic system which is by far more complex than electrical installations.

But unfortunately fixing electronic equipment pays nothing and sitting at a work bench all day is boring.

bollox
i cant even be arsed to argue... this is why you give us a bad name because no one is good enough for you city and guilds
muppets
!
gay , moron ,muppet ! your so witty and sharp i nearly never replied to this thread in case you gave me another tongue lashing

I apologize for jumping to conclusions about your circumstances , but still think the 5 day course is madness , if your average bathroom fitter ,diy,er can go on a 5 day NIC course and then register as a part p qualified electrician , why bother serving your time ????? its not about qualifications , as some of the best sparks out there have very few , i have the bare minimum myself ,its just the fact that in theory your average Joe public can become a fully registered NIC part p registered electrician in about a month , surely even you can see that this something that needs to be looked at .. maybe this course should only be for people with experience but lacking the required certs , but that's not the case at the training center local to me , any one can sign up, and as i was told by one of the guys running the course " everyone passes" which implies that it is very easy .
This is my local tech
Electrical Training Courses, New Entrant Gas, Electrics Course - Liverp
Electrical Training Courses, New Entrant Gas, Electrics Course - Liverpool UK
 
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S

Shakey

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #18
gay , moron ,muppet ! your so witty and sharp i nearly never replied to this thread in case you gave me another tongue lashing :p
I apologize for jumping to conclusions about your circumstances , but still think the 5 day course is madness , if your average bathroom fitter ,diy,er can go on a 5 day NIC course and then register as a part p qualified electrician , why bother serving your time ????? its not about qualifications , as some of the best sparks out there have very few , i have the bare minimum myself ,its just the fact that in theory your average Joe public can become a fully registered NIC part p registered electrician in about a month , surely even you can see that this something that needs to be looked at .. maybe this course should only be for people with experience but lacking the required certs , but that's not the case at the training center local to me , any one can sign up, and as i was told by one of the guys running the course " everyone passes" which implies that it is very easy .
This is my local tech
Electrical Training Courses, New Entrant Gas, Electrics Course - Liverpool UK
well i am the training manager for a private training company, and i can assure you not everyone passes with me!

and we certainly dont let 'anyone' straight onto the EAL DEI course either - there would be no point, they would have no chance!
 
L

londonelec

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #19
gay , moron ,muppet ! your so witty and sharp i nearly never replied to this thread in case you gave me another tongue lashing

Its your attitude to someone that has done a 5 day course that Písses me off.

You judge without knowing, so what if someone has done a 5 day course they might of been installing for years but never had the opportunity to take a long course.

You will find that some people can learn things faster than others and 5 days solid is yes very quick but does not mean this person cannot do a new installation.

FFS seriously unless they have done some major **** up its not rocket science and the testing is also very easy... i mean ohms law is probably as deep as electrical installs go.

If you follow the onsite guide, partm, and part L and have the 16th/17th (now with you) then how can you go wrong.

Looking at electricians and the way they behave makes me chuckle because they honestly believe that they are the best at what they do and there is nothing higher than there trade and to be honest you can cover the maths and theory in 5 days no problem.

Its the Experience that is very important and should not be overlooked its the way that electricians can pull more than one cable at a time or the thinking / planing of the install for me that i am learning.

If you make a new install and do it wrong then i am sorry i will agree with you then they should leave it alone but i know that most of the time when testing comes its not the electrician its the chippies, labourers, bodgers that have put a screw or nail through you cable that will be the problem.

Periodic is another subject but new installs everything should be perfect its new and testing it is a piece of **** and 5 days you could teach this.

PS sorry about the names i was just making a witty point :)
 
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G

greekislandlover

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #20
Meanwhile, back to the thread!

Earlier on, paulm asked a question that got overlooked:-

so what your saying shakey is no smoke alarms on the same rcd as sockets which i understand for obvious reasons even though smoke alarms have battery back up,so how do you get on if your fitting a dual rcd board (which seems to be the norm given the price of rcbos) if you have two rings up and down ,you are going to have 1 ring on each rcd so how can you comply with no smokes on same rcd as sockets.
 
S

Shakey

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #21
Meanwhile, back to the thread!

Earlier on, paulm asked a question that got overlooked:-
as has already been said, then you have a seperate RCBo for the smokes

if the smokes are off the lights, then the lights may have to be on an RCBO

or just do the smokes in SWA......:p
 
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