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micknew

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Just read a thread on the DIY section Re Range cooker wiring.
Because he got the answers he wanted he said he would possible do the work himself (of course he will).
Just because its in the DIY section I do not think giving advice to DIYers is justified.
Its crazy telling people how to do our job our work isn't it?
The DIY section was created by admin because of aggro given to DIY posters.
Why the hell do members instruct them, its certain that the work will not get tested.
Plus it does sparks out of work.
Who thinks the DIY section should be scrapped?
 
So you want the carnage that exisited before to return?

The idea is to try and help them, people on here will advise to get a spark in if the feel the poster is out of there depth. If someone is going to do something regardlless then its on there own terms we cant force anyone to do anything.
 
When you've got a wee problem with your car or computer or anything at all, we automatically head straight on the net to check it out. It's helped me out a lot over the years with certain things. It's only that the shoe is on the other foot and I completely agree that giving advice away for free is doing sparks out of work. However we currently live in a time of austerity where loads of families up and down the country are toiling for cash and with Christmas round the corner it's understandable people are attempting things themselves. So in short no I don't think it's a good idea
 
Dillb said:
So you want the carnage that exisited before to return?

The idea is to try and help them, people on here will advise to get a spark in if the feel the poster is out of there depth. If someone is going to do something regardlless then its on there own terms we cant force anyone to do anything.
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Well I suppose having a DIY section does encourage the DIYer, verbal carnage would be a better option than death by electrocution or fire.
 
Its been 3 months and the admin have not yet formulated basic advice and links for diyers regarding safe isolation, labc notification, requirements for testing, esc advice etc etc....
 
Andy78 said:
Its been 3 months and the admin have not yet formulated basic advice and links for diyers regarding safe isolation, labc notification, requirements for testing, esc advice etc etc....
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Surely that sort of stuff is learned by professional sparks during training.
Are we going to train them as well, it gets worse.
 
Funny how so many have no problem with those not time served worked on a potentially lethal weapon (motor vehicle), something weighing up to 2.5 tonnes, full of toxic, flammable and in other ways hazardous substances.....yet no one whines about "DIYer mechanics".....
 
one option is just to limit the amount of instruction given to the DIYers as people have been doing in other posts. . Yes im a qualified mechanic but I also do DIY electrics, nothing major though. We can't control what people believe is out of their depth.. I know my limits on electrics, but cars etc no problem !
just remember - people don't have common sense these days . . .
 
micknew said:
Best thing would be for no one to give practical advice to DIYers.
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I'll agree to disagree entirely, that OP isn't capable, however he has been warned and better to be corrected on what he needs, than be given no information and ends up sticking a cooker on a lightswitch and burning the house down....He has been told....if he wants to ignore it, then its his own lookout...some people will either never pay for an electrician or will only do so when they realise they are wholly out of their depth......
 
The DIY section should only be used for jobs which most would deem "DIY-able", such as "What are these LED bulb thingies, and where can I use them?"
 
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I for one will not go near it. I’m not being responsible for injury or death.

I don’t have the knowledge of domestic work, I’m definitely not passing on industrial know how to DIYers.

So as been said, if you don’t like it, stay out. I will!

I’ll help anyone, but only if I’m confident of the persons ability.
 
There is a legal side to this. If someone gives some advice which, because it is interpreted wrong or even wrong advice because they haven't got full details and an accident occurs, then they could be held liable.
 
I think it is great. It keeps DIYers away from the main forums where trainees, sparks and engineers can discuss the trade and problems associated with it. If the DIY forum is removed they will be back on the main forums and lets face it we don't want that. To add I won't go near that forum and will not give any advice out, you need not either. Like Tony mentioned I will not be responsible for someones injury or death either.
 
Andy78 said:
Its been 3 months and the admin have not yet formulated basic advice and links for diyers regarding safe isolation, labc notification, requirements for testing, esc advice etc etc....
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Why would Admin be writing advice stickys? That was never part of the deal. If you want to write some then go ahead.

Andy78 said:
To be honest I think the best thing I could do is stop going in the DIY section.
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The DIY forum is deliberately opt-in, if you want to be opted out just let me know and I'll do it for you.


As for the legal implications, the forum terms and conditions are here. Everyone on the forum with posting permissions has implicitly agreed to the T&C's when they joined. Included in there and right at the top is a paragraph; It is important to note that all comments on this website are uncorroborated therefore should not be seen as fact but simply the opinion of the person posting the message.
 
Marvo said:
As for the legal implications, the forum terms and conditions are here. Everyone on the forum with posting permissions has implicitly agreed to the T&C's when they joined. Included in there and right at the top is a paragraph; It is important to note that all comments on this website are uncorroborated therefore should not be seen as fact but simply the opinion of the person posting the message.
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meaningless rubbish though isn't it, at least it might cover the website to some extent, but not the professional contributors.

You for instance are listed as being an electrical engineer, therefore any advice you give can be taken as being professional advice, and you as a professional electrical engineer are far more culpable legally if that advice led to an accident than someone who was just a DIYer themselves.
 
I think making the DIY forum 'opt in' is a good idea - I've seen DIY forums where people regularly drop by, post an ambiguous question and never come back. Google the question and you'll see they've pasted the same post on as many forums as they could find. Making question-askers register then wait for appropriate access to be granted should help filter out the time wasters.
I too won't be opting in to the DIY section any time soon, partly for fear of someone who isn't afraid to have a go at their electrics not being afraid to have a go at getting me to admit liability if it all goes wrong. It's bad enough with "electricians" coming here expecting me to answer their questions as if it's my job.

At the risk of sounding like a bum-licker I don't think it's the admins' responsibility to start writing DIY guides either, nor do I want to see the DIY section overtake the professional section; a dark little corner for DIYers to get ignored in or have their question converted into a sale is fine by me.
 
Marvo said:
Why would Admin be writing advice stickys? That was never part of the deal. If you want to write some then go ahead.
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It was promised, started, then never finished. I would expect a forum that was actively encouraging DIYers to do electrical work to at least furnish them with basic safety information. It is clear that moral obligation counts for nothing here when you can hide behind legal disclaimers.

It has become apparent that the DIY forum was set up as a knee jerk reaction to stop members (and potential advertisement targets) from abandoning the site, and not as a genuine place to help keep DIYers informed of safety issues.



Marvo said:
The DIY forum is deliberately opt-in, if you want to be opted out just let me know and I'll do it for you.
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Yes please
 
Gavin A said:
meaningless rubbish though isn't it, at least it might cover the website to some extent, but not the professional contributors.

You for instance are listed as being an electrical engineer, therefore any advice you give can be taken as being professional advice, and you as a professional electrical engineer are far more culpable legally if that advice led to an accident than someone who was just a DIYer themselves.
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Engineers are no more legally culpable than a domestic electrician. If I acted dangerously or gave dangerous advice during the course of my professional duties the consequences could be greater but I'd face exactly the same charges as would any electrician.

If the UK system as a whole considered electrical DIY as too dangerous they'd treat it the same as the gas industry surely and as such it would be outright illegal to touch or tamper with any installation in any way plus there wouldn't be the materials available over the counter without producing of a registration card. This evidently isn't the case so I see the door being wide open for DIY'ers. Yes, there's bulding control but correct me if I'm wrong, they're only informed after the work is done so even that is kinda closing the door after the horse is long gone so to speak.
 
Andy78 said:
It was promised, started, then never finished. I would expect a forum that was actively encouraging DIYers to do electrical work to at least furnish them with basic safety information. It is clear that moral obligation counts for nothing here when you can hide behind legal disclaimers.
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If someone promised to write advice for the DIY section I can assure you it wasn't me. I have no domestic electrical qualification and I have almost no knowledge of the UK regs.

The DIY forum was hardly a knee-jerk reaction by the staff, it was something that was months in the making and was wanted by a clear majority of those members who were vocal on the subject.

I don't understand why you feel it's wrong to offer DIY'ers advice. Do you have the same loathing for companies like Haynes who make car manuals that are specifically pitched at non-professionals?


Andy78 said:
Yes please
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Done. If you change your mind let me know.
 
LeeH said:
Just found out I'm not allowed post in the DIY section.
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The DIY section access is given on an opt-in basis. If you'd like to be able to post there please send me a pm requesting access and I'll sort it out for you.
 
Marvo said:
If someone promised to write advice for the DIY section I can assure you it wasn't me. I have no domestic electrical qualification and I have almost no knowledge of the UK regs.
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No it wasn't you. I was referring to the sticky in the DIY forum started by Dan 3 months back and never finished. I remember it being discussed and agreed in a separate thread that guidance would be needed to be available for DIYers regarding safety, legal implications, testing etc...
Marvo said:
The DIY forum was hardly a knee-jerk reaction by the staff, it was something that was months in the making and was wanted by a clear majority of those members who were vocal on the subject.

I don't understand why you feel it's wrong to offer DIY'ers advice. Do you have the same loathing for companies like Haynes who make car manuals that are specifically pitched at non-professionals?
Click to expand...

I have no problem with people doing DIY electrics, I positively encourage certain jobs to be done by householders, I would not have chosen to join the DIY forum otherwise. However most jobs require testing and certification, some jobs require notification, and nearly all jobs require guidance on safe working practices. I am not against the DIY forum, just the way it is implemented.



Marvo said:
Done. If you change your mind let me know.
Click to expand...

Thanks
 
No probs Lee and Mick, the DIY forum isn't everyone's cup of tea.

Andy78 said:
No it wasn't you. I was referring to the sticky in the DIY forum started by Dan 3 months back and never finished. I remember it being discussed and agreed in a separate thread that guidance would be needed to be available for DIYers regarding safety, legal implications, testing etc...

I have no problem with people doing DIY electrics, I positively encourage certain jobs to be done by householders, I would not have chosen to join the DIY forum otherwise. However most jobs require testing and certification, some jobs require notification, and nearly all jobs require guidance on safe working practices. I am not against the DIY forum, just the way it is implemented.
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Ahh, I see where you were going, I didn't realise there was an unfinished sticky. I'll see if I can prompt the right people to get it completed.
 
Marvo said:
I don't understand why you feel it's wrong to offer DIY'ers advice. .
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Really? well I wouldn't want to be responsible for someones death if they became an enthusiast and did something wrong. That's the whole point about that forum surely so only those who feel they can give advice need go near it?
 
If you want to see Scary, have a read through some of the threads in ''Electrical Courses Feedback'' Forum!!

There, you will find just what's coming into this industry under the guise of ''Electricians''!!
One guy in there thinks he is the ''bee's knees'' after his 5 Weeks, and of course uses the fact that the scam he is registered with, has assessed him as such too. Thinks there is no reason why he shouldn't be allowed to work in any sector as an employee either!!!!!

Now if that isn't more scary than anything in the DIY forum, i don't know what is!!
 
Marvo said:
Why would Admin be writing advice stickys? That was never part of the deal. If you want to write some then go ahead.


The DIY forum is deliberately opt-in, if you want to be opted out just let me know and I'll do it for you.


As for the legal implications, the forum terms and conditions are here. Everyone on the forum with posting permissions has implicitly agreed to the T&C's when they joined. Included in there and right at the top is a paragraph; It is important to note that all comments on this website are uncorroborated therefore should not be seen as fact but simply the opinion of the person posting the message.
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Hi Marvo.
In UK law you cannot contract out of death or bodily injury per the Unfair Contract Terms Act, so unless the T&C's have been signed off as being OK by a contract law solicitor then I very much doubt they's hold up in a UK court, particularly if the forum is pitching a section specifically to DIY'ers.
 
Engineer54 said:
If you want to see Scary, have a read through some of the threads in ''Electrical Courses Feedback'' Forum!!

There, you will find just what's coming into this industry under the guise of ''Electricians''!!
One guy in there thinks he is the ''bee's knees'' after his 5 Weeks, and of course uses the fact that the scam he is registered with, has assessed him as such too. Thinks there is no reason why he shouldn't be allowed to work in any sector as an employee either!!!!!

Now if that isn't more scary than anything in the DIY forum, i don't know what is!!
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There's lots of scary things about the UK industry and I doubt none of them will ever get fixed on this forum, is at all...
 
richy3333 said:
There's lots of scary things about the UK industry and I doubt none of them will ever get fixed on this forum, if at all...
Click to expand...


I'm just glad i won't be around to see any of it!! It's you're industry now, i suggest you all look after it or you'll soon become persona non grata, (or whatever it is) and treated as such, by employers and customs alike!!
 
DIY has been around as long as the women who nag their husbands into doing it....ie for centuries. It's not going away an the internet will be the place most head for when they need advice. They're just trying to improve their lot and with some good advice they shouldn't be harming anyone and there's been numerous over the years who've used other forum members who've tried to help them to actually do the work for them.
 
I've posted help elsewhere and more than a few have decided once they have gotten help....to get a spark in as they frequently take off faceplates and go "oh" or realise doing xyz means crawling under floors or through lofts etc......
 
overskilled said:
I've posted help elsewhere and more than a few have decided once they have gotten help....to get a spark in as they frequently take off faceplates and go "oh" or realise doing xyz means crawling under floors or through lofts etc......
Click to expand...


I think that that is the important point. DON'T give step by step instructions if it's more than a simple job, but recommend professional help.
 
Other option is just to bombard them with information....the more the better...technical terms also help weed out the potentially capable (i.e. those with the brains to go and do the research into anything they don't understand and ask salient questions) and those who don't have a clue and who shouldn't be trusted to turn on the kettle....
 
overskilled said:
One question: How many people in the UK have ever been sued for advice given on a forum?

I think the likelihood of a successful argument in court is tenuous at best....
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And what do you think is the likelihood of someone coming back on the forum and saying horrible things to someone who has given up their time to offer them free advice?
 
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