Do you lock off?

[HandySparks]

When working on domestic premises with a modern board, do you lock off the circuit breaker or main switch?

I sometimes do, but not often.

I make an assessment based on:
Who else is in the house. Just me, or several others? Are young children or confused old people present?
The height of the board. Is it out of reach to someone standing on the floor?
The location of the board. Is it close to or visible from the work location? Would someone have to walk past me to reach it?
The type of work I'm doing. Am I replacing an accessory or just changing a lamp?

Shoot me down.

 

[Pete999]

Lock off every time, you are a long time dead Handysparks

 

[gutterball]

It only takes a minute to lock off death if forever.

 

[Maddison]

as a whole it should always be done as we know.. bs7671 states when aggravated by other trades main switch can be locked off for up to 2 hours for "maintenance" ... lol

 

[Andy78]

In domestic premises I only sometimes lock off with a locking kit. I do however always safely isolate and keep the situation fully under my control, and there are many more ways than locking off to achieve this.

 

[Bobster]

In an industrial environment, if I saw someone working on a machine e.g replacing a motor without locking off they would be fired on the spot.

There are times where isolation isn't possible e.g for testing/fault finding. That's a whole different ball game, different precautions would be in place.

 

[HandySparks]

OK, couple of examples.

1) Adding a new socket to an upstairs bedroom. The CU is in the hallway, 2ft off the floor with its hinged cover missing. There are small kids running round the house and you know you're going to have to leave the job from time to time to bring in tools and materials. Of course you lock off.

2) The single homeowner has left you alone in the house to replace the kitchen ceiling light. The CU is also in the kitchen, located just below ceiling height. Both the CU and the work are out of reach from floor level. Would I lock off? No.

It's all a matter of assessing the risk. My most serious injury as a tradesman was from falling from a height of 5ft off a pair of steps (not too serious, but bad enough). I've also had numerous cuts, usually from stripping cable sheath.

Electrical incidents have involved cutting through a couple of live cables that I thought were dead (a non-contact voltstick would have warned me otherwise). When I'm terminating cables which are part of an existing installation, I use VDE tools and, where possible, make a habit of handling them as though they might be live. As Andy78 says, it's not just about locking off.

 

[Octopus]

Its all about risk assessment...... now where is my lock off kit??

edit: I have just been working on a 3036 cu. Cu in cupboard, fuse on shelf out of reach. Is that locked off?

 

[Tidy Max]

Its all about risk assessment...... now where is my lock off kit??

edit: I have just been working on a 3036 cu. Cu in cupboard, fuse on shelf out of reach. Is that locked off?

I am going with no. If you had the fuse in your pocket or van then yes.
Although theres nothing to stop someone from pulling another fuse and energising the circuit you are working on i suppose.

 

[Andy78]

Electrical incidents have involved cutting through a couple of live cables that I thought were dead (a non-contact voltstick might have warned me otherwise).

Changed that for you.

I have (read, had) a pair of sidecutters that would disagree with your original quote. I once let myself be cajoled into using a voltstick mid cable on a job that was not my own. One of the very few times I have neglected to safely isolate, but one of the biggest reminders. Also the first time I ever used a voltstick, and one has not been in my hand since.

 

[Octopus]

I am going with no. If you had the fuse in your pocket or van then yes.
Although theres nothing to stop someone from pulling another fuse and energising the circuit you are working on i suppose.

And I was working in the hallway directly outside the cupboard!

 

[HandySparks]

Changed that for you.

I have (read, had) a pair of sidecutters that would disagree with your original quote. I once let myself be cajoled into using a voltstick mid cable on a job that was not my own. One of the very few times I have neglected to safely isolate, but one of the biggest reminders. Also the first time I ever used a voltstick, and one has not been in my hand since.

I'd agree that they're not the most reliable of instruments. I always check that they're functional before and after use, preferably on a live cable if not, then by the static on my clothes!

 

[Plonker 3]

Safe isolation of a 3036 would require the use of a blanking module after removal of the fuse carrier as you are potentially leaving exposed live parts, as safe isolation is prevent electric shock to anyone not just the person working on the circuit. This would also prevent accidental replacement of a fuse. So in answer to Murdochs question no it isn't safely isolaoted

 

[Plonker 3]

And I was working in the hallway directly outside the cupboard!

Until you get distracted by a phone call, need the toilet etc

 

[ruston]

I am going with no. If you had the fuse in your pocket or van then yes.
Although theres nothing to stop someone from pulling another fuse and energising the circuit you are working on i suppose.

With those it is always best to remove the cable for that reason.

As others have said in a domestic it is a bit of common sense applied , but if other trades, kids etc, you have to make it so that you are the only one who can get the power back on by whatever means work for you.

Industrial is a different ball game as Rob has said.
Circumstances dictate events

 

[Andy78]

I'd agree that they're not the most reliable of instruments. I always check that they're functional before and after use, preferably on a live cable if not, then by the static on my clothes!

It worked before, it worked after, it still threw me a curveball. You are damn right they are not the most reliable of instruments, or use any reliable method to function.

 

[HandySparks]

Safe isolation of a 3036 would require the use of a blanking module after removal of the fuse carrier as you are potentially leaving exposed live parts, as safe isolation is prevent electric shock to anyone not just the person working on the circuit. This would also prevent accidental replacement of a fuse. So in answer to Murdochs question no it isn't safely isolaoted

It may not be 'safely isolated', but would you do it (given the circumstances outlined by Murdoch)?

 

[Andy78]

Safe isolation of a 3036 would require the use of a blanking module after removal of the fuse carrier as you are potentially leaving exposed live parts, as safe isolation is prevent electric shock to anyone not just the person working on the circuit. This would also prevent accidental replacement of a fuse. So in answer to Murdochs question no it isn't safely isolaoted

I see the point about being able to replace a fuse into the slot.
Is not the barrier requirement for both live parts and the front of an enclosure IP2X ? This would be afforded by the fuse base surely, therefore not leaving exposed live parts ?

 

[Plonker 3]

It may not be 'safely isolated', but would you do it (given the circumstances outlined by Murdoch)?

I probably would, but that doesn't mean that safe isolation is followed does it? If I were to get electrocuted you can almost be certain the coroner would attribute this to the cause.

 

[HandySparks]

I probably would, but that doesn't mean that safe isolation is followed does it? If I were to get electrocuted you can almost be certain the coroner would attribute this to the cause.

Indeed. And the poll is about what you actually do rather than what you think you should do!

 

[Plonker 3]

I see the point about being able to replace a fuse into the slot.
Is not the barrier requirement for both live parts and the front of an enclosure IP2X ? This would be afforded by the fuse base surely, therefore not leaving exposed live parts ?

It is indeed.

 

[Plonker 3]

Indeed. And the poll is about what you actually do rather than what you think you should do!

True, but I would like to think we are discussing the use of safe isolation rather than what we may do. Because as strange as it sounds I am sure there will be some who read this and think that we as competent sparks don't need to safely isolate so they don't need to neither.

I suppose one way of covering our backsides would be to say we have carried out a dynamic risk assessment.

 

[ruston]

I took the meaning as "do we practice what we preach." The degree of safe isolation (in a domestic) is proportional to the circumstances . You have to know that the circuit cannot be energized except by you.

 

[davesparks]

I always attach a 'do not switch on' sign in front of the DB, and keep the fuse in my pocket or lock the mcb off if there is anyone else in the building. Unless I am in a position to see anyone approach the DB

 

[bigdavs83]

I'll echo what's been said already. I work in commercial/industrial and we have been provided with the very fetching bumbag lock off kit. If it's seen or found out we have not applied the rams set out and not used a lock off kit its gross misconduct and up the road you go minus the van keys!! I have however been guilty in the past of not locking off whilst doing homers or working in my own house. It's very easy to get relaxed around the potential killer of electricity because we work with it every day and getting a "belt" somehow comes as part of the job! It shouldn't and no ones life is worth taking chances.

 

[baldsparkies]

Domestic !!
Remove cover, disconnect circuit cables from breaker, replace cover.
Started in the trade 1970, still here and going strong.
Works for me.
Commercial different ball game, but your after the same end result.
Working on an electrical circuit without causing harm to yourself, another person, or the installation.

 

[Tidy Max]

I just wear marigolds and wellies. Time is money gents.

 

[baldsparkies]

I just wear marigolds and wellies. Time is money gents.

I prefer yellow, goes with my PPE

 

[Geordie Spark]

Always ............ whenever I remember (and the Poll button thingy doesn't work on my lappy)

 

[Adam W]

I know you're always supposed to lock off, but as others have said you do your own risk assessment - if everyone in the house knows you're working on the electrics, you've told them you're going to knock the power off for a bit, even put a bit of tape and maybe a note on the MCB, what's the likelihood of someone coming along and turning it back on without you noticing?

 

[baldsparkies]

I know you're always supposed to lock off, but as others have said you do your own risk assessment - if everyone in the house knows you're working on the electrics, you've told them you're going to knock the power off for a bit, even put a bit of tape and maybe a note on the MCB, what's the likelihood of someone coming along and turning it back on without you noticing?

When its physically as easy as flicking a switch, very likely.
Treat all around you as if there idiots, because one day, one will be.
Notices and tape over breakers stop nobody.
I take the cables out of the breaker cover back on.
Its never let me down.

 

[Adam W]

When its physically as easy as flicking a switch, very likely.
Treat all around you as if there idiots, because one day, one will be.
Notices and tape over breakers stop nobody.
I take the cables out of the breaker cover back on.
Its never let me down.

It isn't just 'flicking a switch' though, it's resetting an MCB, which most people know turns off if something has gone wrong, is generally not used for functional switching, and is likely to be out of the way in a cupboard, often with a cover over the switches.

In a commercial or industrial environment then yes if the lights are off you can almost guarantee some helpful such and such will come along, make disappointed noises and blindly start trying all the light switches without giving the matter any thought whatsoever, but in someone's house it's easier to tell everyone not to turn anything on for a bit.

As I've already said it depends on the individual situation - if you've got plasterers wanting to use their paddle and chippies wanting to use their jigsaw they probably won't think twice about fiddling around in the CU to get what they want and to hell with everyone else, but if you're the only one in the house, you can hear if the front door opens, and anyone has to go past you to get to the CU, you can be pretty certain the cct isn't going to get re-energised accidentally.

 

[baldsparkies]

As you say its all part and parcel to risk assessment.
I guess its down to how much of a risk your going to take.
All I can say is my tickers almost 62 years old, and its served me well in the industry up to now.
That's my reasoning for isolating the circuit in such a way that its not a 5 second flip the breaker back on scenario.
We all take our choices in this game. :biggrin:

 

[VoltzElectrical]

Changed that for you.

I have (read, had) a pair of sidecutters that would disagree with your original quote. I once let myself be cajoled into using a voltstick mid cable on a job that was not my own. One of the very few times I have neglected to safely isolate, but one of the biggest reminders. Also the first time I ever used a voltstick, and one has not been in my hand since.

They have their place. Twice in one week just before christmas i was working on wood pile mounted streetlights. I had to replace some burnt out components and my fluke voltage tester showed the circuit to be dead, but voltage indicator indicated voltage there.

I followed the overhead supply back to the lines and visually discovered a burnt out neutral giving me no reference point on the fluke.

I also use one to quickly check polarity, or fuses without pulling the bullet and doing a continuity check.

It's all about knowing their uses and limitations.

 

[GMES]

I have said it before on this forum and will say it again, a voltstick is only useful for stirring your brew, Why anyone would feel confidence with one is beyond me.
Also while on the subject of safe isolation, less than 2 weeks ago we tested a couple of offices/ cabins for a regular customer which threw up some remedial work one of the jobs was to replace 25 socket fronts that due to being painted had started causing issues when trying to switch the sockets off on the faceplate.
So in we go saturday morning ( only time we could shut it down ) anyway in the board there are 4 mcb's 3 x 20 for sockets 1 x 6a for lights I switched off all 3 socket mcbs but my socket tester still indicated power so even turned off the lighting with no luck.
The long and short of it was the mcb for my required cicruit had gone faulty so still allowed voltage through. I bet a lot of guys would have not tested the socket if they had all circuits isolated, that's why it's crucial to test, test, test.

 

[VoltzElectrical]

I have said it before on this forum and will say it again, a voltstick is only useful for stirring your brew, Why anyone would feel confidence with one is beyond me.
Also while on the subject of safe isolation, less than 2 weeks ago we tested a couple of offices/ cabins for a regular customer which threw up some remedial work one of the jobs was to replace 25 socket fronts that due to being painted had started causing issues when trying to switch the sockets off on the faceplate.
So in we go saturday morning ( only time we could shut it down ) anyway in the board there are 4 mcb's 3 x 20 for sockets 1 x 6a for lights I switched off all 3 socket mcbs but my socket tester still indicated power so even turned off the lighting with no luck.
The long and short of it was the mcb for my required cicruit had gone faulty so still allowed voltage through. I bet a lot of guys would have not tested the socket if they had all circuits isolated, that's why it's crucial to test, test, test.

If you mean a neon tester, I agree. BUT i stand by my 'considered' use of a non contact voltage indicator for the reasons stated in my post.

Voltz (stick). lol.

 

[Plonker 3]

Don't forget safe isolation can also help uncover nasty surprises like this.



Yes that is a shared neutral taken from a socket, as the light switch only had a permanent live at it. The socket was just beneath the switch.

 

[VoltzElectrical]

Don't forget safe isolation can also help uncover nasty surprises like this.

View attachment 27686

Yes that is a shared neutral taken from a socket, as the light switch only had a permanent live at it. The socket was just beneath the switch.

Which is why I nearly always take the feed to the switch! LOL :smilewinkgrin::smilewinkgrin:

 

[TJ Anderson]

Don't forget safe isolation can also help uncover nasty surprises like this.

View attachment 27686

Yes that is a shared neutral taken from a socket, as the light switch only had a permanent live at it. The socket was just beneath the switch.

You shouldn't still be churning out work like this. Take some pride man!

 

[GMES]

If you mean a neon tester, I agree. BUT i stand by my 'considered' use of a non contact voltage indicator for the reasons stated in my post.

Voltz (stick). lol.

Shut up ya baby ---- ha ha

 

[Plonker 3]

You shouldn't still be churning out work like this. Take some pride man!

I will have you know I used that for my DI assessment so it must be OK :rofl:

 

[Guest125]

We had an issue today where we needed to fill out a permit to work on electrical sytems. This was given to us by the PC to do. Then we had to hand it back to the site manager to 'sign off'. My comment was "what competencies do you have to sign this permit off?" "None". Was the answer. Absolute madness.

Off topic a bit I know.

 

[VoltzElectrical]

Shut up ya baby ---- ha ha

'baby ----' now, but one day I will grow up. And then it's gonna get ugly! :89:

 

[shanky887614]

we work live, got told a story today that had me in stiches.

an electrician got told they are not allowed to work live on this board, he picks up radio and tells the hospital

"There can be no accidents for the next hours as the power is being turned off" lol, i wish i could have seen the formans face

 

[ferg]

Well I'll answer honestly and say usually for domestic.

I take the dynamic risk assesment approach.

If I'm working in a commercial environment then always.

 

[NDG Elecs]

I put rarely as my honest answer. Take it on a case by case basis and act accordingly. I am happier when I have a 3036 fuse firmly in my pocket rather than simply isolating a MCB I must admit.

My lovely Wiha sidecutters, which were new at the time, got a nice little hole when I mistakenly cut a live cable. They are great for stripping 1.5mm now.

I should probably be more cautious though. Time to dust off the MCB lock I think...

 

[Knobhead]

I can only speak for the industrial side.

All the companies I’ve worked for, no permit or incorrect isolation and you’re in deep ----. This covered more than just electrical, all plant services and dangers were included.

In the electrical department we had a get out. Sections of plant could be handed over for test. You can’t test many things with no power and bits isolated.
You had to have a damn good reason for asking for a “sanction to test”.

The isolation procedure at the first place was 170 pages covering just about anything you could think of.

The foundry wanted to improve their systems and I was lumbered with the job. Quick get out for me, phone the first company. They sent me the full document, the management went in to a state shock when I dropped it on their desks.

Isolation procedures need commitment from everyone involved.


What goes on in the domestic field I don’t know but I’m getting the feeling its very lackadaisical.

 

[shanky887614]

I can only speak for the industrial side.

All the companies I’ve worked for, no permit or incorrect isolation and you’re in deep ----. This covered more than just electrical, all plant services and dangers were included.

In the electrical department we had a get out. Sections of plant could be handed over for test. You can’t test many things with no power and bits isolated.
You had to have a damn good reason for asking for a “sanction to test”.

The isolation procedure at the first place was 170 pages covering just about anything you could think of.

The foundry wanted to improve their systems and I was lumbered with the job. Quick get out for me, phone the first company. They sent me the full document, the management went in to a state shock when I dropped it on their desks.

Isolation procedures need commitment from everyone involved.


What goes on in the domestic field I don’t know but I’m getting the feeling its very lackadaisical.

usually in domestic its, flick it off then a bit of tape over breaker

 

[GMES]

I'm with Tony on this one, it's a different world working in the industrial sector. I have worked on many varied things from huge crushers and tyre shredders to furnaces, foundries and the list goes on.
It doesn't bear thinking about what could go wrong if there wasn't an extremely stringent isolation procedure in place, I have unfortunately witnessed a couple of serious injuries due to lack of safe isolation and I don't want to see another one as long as I live.

 

[tazz]

Most commercial we used 2 sets of padlocks, our own and the main contractors.
Permit to work, and then only when main contractor and electrical contractor are both happy that the circuit(s) have been dead test again, will both padlocks come off and re powered.