Discuss downlights intallation help in the Electrical Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net

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shamoo

Hello guys/girls,
I am no electrician nor do i claim to know anything other than what i read or am told, hence why I'm here asking for your help. I have in the past added plug sockets coming off a spur, and that's about it. My goal is to replica my single light in the kitchen to 8 downlights. Ideally i would get an electrician in to do it, but i just can't afford it. So the plan now is to do all the labour and wire it up myself (with your help ;) ) and before its connected get a qualified electrician to certify it.
I have spent the last few days trying to get some information on how to wire it up and all the other things needed to make sure it's done correctly. I know about leaving enough space because of heat issues but my main concern is the wiring. Can you correct me or just confirm that what i plan to do is correct before the electrician comes and checks?
The downlights are 240v mains lights gu10, with 50W GU10 Halogen bulb, at the moment there is only 1 light in the kitchen, i have got 1.5mm twin and earth cable, is that the right wire? The information i have obtained from various web sites it that a "daisy chain" set up is best but surely it cant be as easy as wiring up from the 1st light to the last light one after the other? or would a junction box be better? Last question and i know I'm probably going to make myself look a bit daft but i just need this to be confirmed. To get the "daisy chain" wired up do you wire the 1st light from the mains (the wire that is feeding the current light) and use the same live and neutral sockets of the 1st light to feed the 2nd light with the twin and earth wire i bought? so essentially each light will have 2 wires in the live and neutral socket, a feed in and out, or am i way off the mark?
like i said i am going to get a sparky to check it all out before it goes live and just want to do the work my self to keep the cost down.
Any help would be much appreciated. thanks
 

Murdoch

Regular EF Member
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Yawn....
 

Taylortwocities

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You need to rethink your approach.

Are you energy concious AT ALL? How many icebergs will you personally melt by replacing a perfectly adequate single lamps (60watts, perhaps) with 400watts of torch lights.
They are called DOWNlights for a reason, you know.

You'll then notice that you cannot see anything on the work surfaces so you'll need to be adding more lights under the cupboards so you can see to spoon the caviar onto the blinis...and another over the sink so you can see the greasy plates properly.

Oh and as a PS

re
the plan now is to do all the labour and wire it up myself (with your help ;) ) and before its connected get a qualified electrician to certify it.
That is not how it happens. Electricians can only notify work that they have done themselves. Electrical work in a kitchen is notifiable.
If you are competent and have the right test gear you can do it yourself and pay the local authority a fee of around £200 plus another fee for their electrician to check it all out. From your post i would suggest this is not your best option.

Or you can have a registered electrician do the work, certify and notify it. Please take that route.


 
OP
P

Plonker 3

Why not wire it as you feel necessary then when the spark comes to test it he tells you what needs changing etc. Seems like you want to screw over a friendly forum and just pay someone the bare minimum.

Either dig deep or at least dont try and take us for idiots.
 

timo1

Regular EF Member
Messages
497
Easy to make a real pigs ear of downlights mate, and although this may seem unhelpful, It would be better saving up a bit and getting an electrician to fit, the fitting can burn really hot (if halogen lamp)and really need to be fitted correctly and terminated well using heat resistant flex.
 

KevinS

Regular EF Member
Messages
326
Location
Bedlington Northumerland
You don't tell us how your original light is wired, I think this will be another problem when you get to it.
you best bet, and also save you money, if you wish to go up that route, is to get an electrician in for you, tell him you will cut the holes in the ceiling (ready for him coming) and have the carpets & floorboards up ready for him arriving (if req'd)
This will save you money and you will know its done right AND SAFE

I would also look into using LED bulbs also, the bulbs will cost more, but will pay for themselves over and over
 

mayfair

Regular EF Member
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Your right in what you say in the wiring and i feel sure you can do this but please switch of at the Main and let everyone else in the house know you have done this. Pro electricians lock out the fuse box so someone dont come along and switch it back on whilst your hanging from the live. Your 1.5 twin and earth is fine but you should consider going down the low energy route if you can afford it. Be careful whilst drilling the holes for the downlights as to not catch existing cables etc. Take it slow and think it through and you should be OK........BTW ignore the silly comments that your going to get from certain memebers that think you need an electrician to change a fuse. But if you feel your getting out of your depth dont hesitate to call in a pro.
Hello guys/girls,
I am no electrician nor do i claim to know anything other than what i read or am told, hence why I'm here asking for your help. I have in the past added plug sockets coming off a spur, and that's about it. My goal is to replica my single light in the kitchen to 8 downlights. Ideally i would get an electrician in to do it, but i just can't afford it. So the plan now is to do all the labour and wire it up myself (with your help ;) ) and before its connected get a qualified electrician to certify it.
I have spent the last few days trying to get some information on how to wire it up and all the other things needed to make sure it's done correctly. I know about leaving enough space because of heat issues but my main concern is the wiring. Can you correct me or just confirm that what i plan to do is correct before the electrician comes and checks?
The downlights are 240v mains lights gu10, with 50W GU10 Halogen bulb, at the moment there is only 1 light in the kitchen, i have got 1.5mm twin and earth cable, is that the right wire? The information i have obtained from various web sites it that a "daisy chain" set up is best but surely it cant be as easy as wiring up from the 1st light to the last light one after the other? or would a junction box be better? Last question and i know I'm probably going to make myself look a bit daft but i just need this to be confirmed. To get the "daisy chain" wired up do you wire the 1st light from the mains (the wire that is feeding the current light) and use the same live and neutral sockets of the 1st light to feed the 2nd light with the twin and earth wire i bought? so essentially each light will have 2 wires in the live and neutral socket, a feed in and out, or am i way off the mark?
like i said i am going to get a sparky to check it all out before it goes live and just want to do the work my self to keep the cost down.
Any help would be much appreciated. thanks
 
OP
P

Plonker 3

Your right in what you say in the wiring and i feel sure you can do this but please switch of at the Main and let everyone else in the house know you have done this. Pro electricians lock out the fuse box so someone dont come along and switch it back on whilst your hanging from the live. Your 1.5 twin and earth is fine but you should consider going down the low energy route if you can afford it. Be careful whilst drilling the holes for the downlights as to not catch existing cables etc. Take it slow and think it through and you should be OK........BTW ignore the silly comments that your going to get from certain memebers that think you need an electrician to change a fuse. But if you feel your getting out of your depth dont hesitate to call in a pro.
So bonding, RCd protection, load on circuit are already fine are they?
 

mayfair

Regular EF Member
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Some of us joined the forum to offer help to people, not just to slag every person asking for help off. It does the proffesion or the forum no good whatsoever. I suppose you go to the garage to get everything done on your car !!! The OP has had the sense to ask for advice. 1000's of people out there would haver just gone to BnQ and wacked the downlights up without a thought.
So bonding, RCd protection, load on circuit are already fine are they?
 
OP
P

Plonker 3

No far from it, but to do jobs correctly. All I pointed out was what needs to be in place in regards to altering a installation. Advice should be the correct advice and not just what someone wants too hear.

All work has to comply with the current version of BS7671. Which states all what i have said shoul;d be satisfactory before carrying out the works asked about.
 

telectrix

Disrespected Scouser
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best way. find out where you can fit the downlights, avoiding joists.cut the holes the correct size. get the floor up above. daisy chain your 1.5mm from the existing light to the 1st downlight, then 2nd, and so on. then call in a spark to correctly wire them, test them, check your earthing and bonding etc.
 

mayfair

Regular EF Member
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Spot on Tel great advice m8.
best way. find out where you can fit the downlights, avoiding joists.cut the holes the correct size. get the floor up above. daisy chain your 1.5mm from the existing light to the 1st downlight, then 2nd, and so on. then call in a spark to correctly wire them, test them, check your earthing and bonding etc.
 

Amp David

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Some of us joined the forum to offer help to people, not just to slag every person asking for help off. It does the proffesion or the forum no good whatsoever. I suppose you go to the garage to get everything done on your car !!! The OP has had the sense to ask for advice. 1000's of people out there would haver just gone to BnQ and wacked the downlights up without a thought.
I don't no, but at the same time I don't have to go onto mechanics forums asking how to do the work, when I really haven't a clue.

My stand on topics like this is that if you need to ask a question regards a little part of the work then fine, but if you basically ask how its done from the first to the last step, then this to me demonstrates that the person asking has no idea at all what he or she is doing and IMO should leave it to some one who does.
 
OP
S

shamoo

Thanks mayfair and telectrix for your input and dillb if you cant be arsed to help or advise in a way where u don't sound like a sarcastic dick then don't bother. Like i said before i don't know 100% how to do it hence why i asked for help from people that do and if i am close to getting it right and some one can help me then great, but if i'm a million miles away, then i can do as much as i can before i call the pro's in.
just a note for the people that are willing to help, i'll be placing the lights from above by lifting the carpets and floor boards to make sure no pipes/wires are touched and the joist won't be drilled. Tele your exactly right in the approach, nothing will be completed until a pro sparky has checked everything and said its fine.
I'll definatly reconsider the bulbs.
 

Fin170

Regular EF Member
Messages
760
Location
Devon
Has anybody mentioned fire hoods yet?

If you're not going to spend out on a professional at least opt for decent fittings and lamps that won't burn your house down. I suggest JCC Led 7s or if you want swivelly ones any fire rated unit + GE, kosnic, LEDlight etc lamps
 

Amp David

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Thanks mayfair and telectrix for your input and dillb if you cant be arsed to help or advise in a way where u don't sound like a sarcastic dick then don't bother. Like i said before i don't know 100% how to do it hence why i asked for help from people that do and if i am close to getting it right and some one can help me then great, but if i'm a million miles away, then i can do as much as i can before i call the pro's in.
just a note for the people that are willing to help, i'll be placing the lights from above by lifting the carpets and floor boards to make sure no pipes/wires are touched and the joist won't be drilled. Tele your exactly right in the approach, nothing will be completed until a pro sparky has checked everything and said its fine.
I'll definatly reconsider the bulbs.
Same old story:nopity:
 

Amp David

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DIY bob hears something he doesn't like so comes back ranting because of a post that hits home the truth.

See too many times lately.

Post #2 sums it up 100%
 

mayfair

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DIY Bob as you put it must get fed up of visiting for advice and getting abuse from some forum members that think wiring downlighters is some sort of secret work that can only be achieved by studying for 5 years. IMO
 

imago

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DIY Bob as you put it must get fed up of visiting for advice and getting abuse from some forum members that think wiring downlighters is some sort of secret work that can only be achieved by studying for 5 years. IMO
I understand your point, and sympathise with the keen and/or experienced DIYer.

However, as has already been mentioned this work requires RCD protection testing and notification according to the current building regs. So bunging in some T&E cutting holes in the celing shoving in the downlights and nipping up the terminals doesn't really cover it. So when a person comes to this forum anyone answering his "have I missed anything/have I got this right" type questions we are all duty bound to point out these issues.

Professional electricians not only have to jump through the hoops and hand over the cash, but on the forum or face to face owe a duty of care to anyone seeking professional advice. The answers may not be welcome, but they should be both accurate and complete IMHO.
 
OP
A

AP Electrical

Could do with a DIY help desk so any forum members who signed up to give up there time and proffesional opinion for free can go and help joe public, and everyone who can't be bothered can stay this side of the fence. Ps I'll be staying this side......
 
OP
S

shamoo

thanks Fin, i will def look into getting the right lamps.
 

mayfair

Regular EF Member
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I understand your point, and sympathise with the keen and/or experienced DIYer. Nice to Know

However, as has already been mentioned this work requires RCD protection testing and notification according to the current building regs. So bunging in some T&E cutting holes in the celing shoving in the downlights and nipping up the terminals doesn't really cover it. So when a person comes to this forum anyone answering his "have I missed anything/have I got this right" type questions we are all duty bound to point out these issues.

Professional electricians not only have to jump through the hoops and hand over the cash, but on the forum or face to face owe a duty of care to anyone seeking professional advice. The answers may not be welcome, but they should be both accurate and complete IMHO.
Which in my opinion and its only my opinion and i know i live and work abroad is crap people have been putting lights in for years and its worked just fine. RCD protection is standard here so i cant comment. Over regulated bloody britain....full of jobs worth's
 

mayfair

Regular EF Member
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There's alway going to be people that are prepared to help others and those that dont.
Could do with a DIY help desk so any forum members who signed up to give up there time and proffesional opinion for free can go and help joe public, and everyone who can't be bothered can stay this side of the fence. Ps I'll be staying this side......
 
OP
A

AP Electrical

I'll help anyone but to be honest when I look on here it's more for chat, and to pick the brains of other sparks not to walk people through DIY tasks.
 

imago

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Which in my opinion and its only my opinion and i know i live and work abroad is crap people have been putting lights in for years and its worked just fine. RCD protection is standard here so i cant comment. Over regulated bloody britain....full of jobs worth's
There are plenty of rules and regulations which many people don't agree with, but once you choose to ignore one or a few where does it stop? I certainly don't agree with everything in the regs, some parts are ridiculously over the top, some don't go far enough. The point is though that if the OP goes ahead and something goes wrong there's a very real chance that the "where there's blame there's a claim" mentality will take over.

"Well I was given advice by an electrician that this was all I needed to do. Look, here's a print out of what I was told." = The person giving the advice is screwed.

If you take the alternative scenario.

"Yes, I was told it should be done by a professional, but I ignored the advice." = The person ingoring the advice is screwed.
 
OP
S

shamoo

I understand your point, and sympathise with the keen and/or experienced DIYer.

However, as has already been mentioned this work requires RCD protection testing and notification according to the current building regs. So bunging in some T&E cutting holes in the celing shoving in the downlights and nipping up the terminals doesn't really cover it. So when a person comes to this forum anyone answering his "have I missed anything/have I got this right" type questions we are all duty bound to point out these issues.

Professional electricians not only have to jump through the hoops and hand over the cash, but on the forum or face to face owe a duty of care to anyone seeking professional advice. The answers may not be welcome, but they should be both accurate and complete IMHO.
Thats what i wanted to know, is there a lot more than i thought that is required or am i close? i can take getting information that i might not like but constructive criticism is better than attitude. At the end of the day i respect that electricity is very dangerous but all i'm doing is wiring up lights, not a whole house or new circuit board. Anyway Thanks for all those who have have replied and anymore info that you feel is important pls tell.
 
OP
S

shamoo

There are plenty of rules and regulations which many people don't agree with, but once you choose to ignore one or a few where does it stop? I certainly don't agree with everything in the regs, some parts are ridiculously over the top, some don't go far enough. The point is though that if the OP goes ahead and something goes wrong there's a very real chance that the "where there's blame there's a claim" mentality will take over.

"Well I was given advice by an electrician that this was all I needed to do. Look, here's a print out of what I was told." = The person giving the advice is screwed.

If you take the alternative scenario.

"Yes, I was told it should be done by a professional, but I ignored the advice." = The person ingoring the advice is screwed.

Your 100% right, and thats why i wanted to know how hard it is? could i do 80% of the work or leave it?
Everyones point is valid but remember everything i am going to do will be check thats 100% i justed wanted to get a head start to save on cost,
 

maffa ent

Regular EF Member
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147
Location
lancashire
i've just read through this post, and can see everyone's points - some well made, some not!

if someone asked me to help them install some downlights, but explained that, for their own reasons, they wanted to do as much as poss, i'd be happy to advise on positioning, type of fitting and lamp etc, and either let them help me do the job, or return when holes are cut, and they've bought the fittings etc.

i would insist on doing everything electrical - pre assessment, bonding, wiring, connections, testing etc.

i'd then issue relevant paperwork.

dget someone to do all that and you're sorted!
 
OP
S

StuSpiers

Drill holes (after careful measurement)
Lay in Cables

Call a spark.
 
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