Help resetting a schneider 3phase circuit breaker

[gtmoto]

Hello,
just wondering if the start button should stay in without the power on or is it a faulty unit?
regards ash

 

[telectrix]

is that australian?

 

[DNS1]

Not sure installing an RCD on denim is a good idea...

 

[telectrix]

and that's not a circuit breaker, it's a contactor with overload. start buttons don't stay in. they press to start and spring release.

 

[Darkwood]

Sorry to say Tel and rarely i correct you but this isn't a contactor its a thermal magnetic circuit breaker used for motor protection, it has no coil so is not a contactor as we would know, yes i know you know what it is its you just worded it poorly.

@ The OP - this is usually incorporated with a larger control system and usually provides the O/L protection upstream of the motor contactor, i don't believe power failure will trip the device when off load although say 1ph was lost while load attached where as its internal monitoring will trip the unit.

So pushing the start in without supply should stay in until stop button is pressed ..... is this your finding, and why do you ask?

 

[telectrix]

i stand corrected. never come across these before.

 

[Brightspark2]

Sorry to sat Tel and rarely i correct you but this isn't a contactor its a thermal magnetic circuit breaker used for motor protection, it has no coil so is not a contactor as we would know, yes i know you know what it is its you just worded it poorly.

Correct

And I'm pretty sure the start button does stay in, it releases when you press the stop button.

 

[Darkwood]

i stand corrected. never come across these before.

In principle they are exactly the same as the overloads you plug on the outgoing sides of contactors but just in a different format and have certain benefits within a control system, they also can be mounted in IP rated enclosures where just the start/stop are accessible and can be used to start and stop motors but only in situe's where power failure and motor starting without warning are not a safety concern ....

 

[gtmoto]

Thanks for your help, I was right. Yes! Well it wouldn't stay in on the start position so I replaced it immediately seems strange that It has gone faulty though, is it repairable? Don't fancy getting another spare at £160 a pop!

 

[Darkwood]

If the new one is ok and holds then yes old one faulty but its rare for them to fault so not worth worrying about, how old was the last unit and was it exposed to contaminants if under 5yrs old then contact Scheider they may replace it under the 1979 consumer rights act although over this 4-5yrs marker you may struggle.

 

[gtmoto]

It's probably older than 5 years, for a extractor fan in a spray booth, thanks for your help

 

[Brightspark2]

Just noticed your denim crotch in the background ha ha

 

[ipf]

Just noticed your denim crotch in the background ha ha

Bit of a balancing act taking that photo lying on your back ?

Or is it a bit of modelling

 

[JD6400]

If the new one is ok and holds then yes old one faulty but its rare for them to fault so not worth worrying about, how old was the last unit and was it exposed to contaminants if under 5yrs old then contact Scheider they may replace it under the 1979 consumer rights act although over this 4-5yrs marker you may struggle.

Hi Darkwood , you mention the 1979 act . How would it help on equipment under 5 years old ? I am not saying it will not , just was keen to know as we are having a worryingly increasing problem with 6ft twin anti corrosive fittings that have been fitted from 12 - 24 months ago that are failing at an alarming rate !:sick:

 

[Marvo]

We refer to these things as manual motor starters. Electrically speaking they're basically a circuit breaker with thermal and magnetic overload mechanisms. Usually the entire front cover just pulls off so you can see the internal mechanisms and check for damage or debris that might be causing a problem. As Mr Darkwood said they're very reliable generally, other than external influences such as flood damage or general debris the most common cause of failure would be short circuit or similar high fault current conditions.

The unit in your photo is fairly large as this type of starter goes, at 70Amp FLC you'd be talking about a 50HP ish motor (40kW ish). This would be a very large spray booth fan....and I really mean very large. Maybe the kind of spray booth that would accommodate commercial aircraft for example?

 

[Darkwood]

Hi Darkwood , you mention the 1979 act . How would it help on equipment under 5 years old ? I am not saying it will not , just was keen to know as we are having a worryingly increasing problem with 6ft twin anti corrosive fittings that have been fitted from 12 - 24 months ago that are failing at an alarming rate !:sick:

Under the 1979 consumers rights act anything you buy has to last a reasonable amount of time that can be expected for that part/item/device ......most things electrical/electronic that doesn't have a natural short life (like a flourescent tube) can usually be expected to last at lest 4-5yrs, if you have a laptop say that failed after 3yrs and the reason was failure of the original parts then all you need to do is get a reputable repair company to put that in writing then take it back to the place of purchase with the report and stress your using you consumer rights then detail which one..... if the place of purchase lead you down the garden path then go direct to the manufacturers.

It can be a rocky road but eventually if you can hold your ground you usually get what you 'deserve' and a free repair or replacement.... now you may ask why get extended cover/waranty out then and i will reply because they are scamming you for money on something you are already covered for.

Senerio - i have an Hotpoint washer and during year 3 which by it normal warranty i was covered for parts only the dryer impeller failed now as i used to hold the Tag as an Hotpoint service Engineer at my previous firm i wrote a detailed bill to myself regarding the problem and charged the invoice as £0.00 so it was official... i got nowhere with Curry's the point of sale as the staff weren't clued up on my rights and just kept bleating if i took out extended warranty i would have been covered so i went direct to hotpoint complaints ....now the first question i ask was to the telephonist is are you able to help me and over-rule you standard policy to which she said no so i asked to be put through to someone who has that authority ...to cut a long story short here i got eventually got through to the right person i thus emailed them my service invoice explained my consumers rights act - stressed the warranty served with the washer dosn't legally hold any grounds and expressed il be taking legal action if they refuse or try to charge my for the callout parts and/or labour.......

Rather than the 15mins repair they took the whole washer and replaced it free of charge.... KNOW YOUR RIGHTS!

Never get extended warranties
Don't expect the point of sale or company help line to know your rights as they are not trained that far
Don't go silly if you have a failed product due to incorrect use lor accident like dropping your laptop etc you are probably wasting your time and theirs, you need to have proof from a recognised repair company before taking this approach.
Don't get nasty over the phone always remain calm and stand your ground and be fully clued up on your rights, if your aggressive or nasty they can use it against you and refuse to help on those grounds.
Be reasonable about the claim ... a part thats failed after 6yrs can be argued its done its service life and anything over 4yrs needs a good case for you to win.


Disclaimer .... i mentioned Hotpoint and Curries but this isn't a slate against the company or products im totally happy with the replacement.... ive done this now several time if not for myself then family and friends ....i estimate i save myself and others in excess of 5k just knowing my rights the last one was my mothers laptop which was sent back to Comet and they give her a report card that the 30month old laptap had a hard-drive failure so they charged her over £200 to repair it as her warranty had run out .... after my intervention we got fully reimbursed .... they argued though that we didn't provide an independent report on its failure which was our sticking point but speaking to the manager i i pointed out we was relying on the in house report they had provided and if they were to dispute the use of this then they are effectively saying their own repair service reports are not reliable which is a hole they dont want to get themselves in .... Kerching thankyou very much!

PS - detail what yo mean by failing i have had similar issues but installation instructions must be adhered to with these fittings as the case will not carry the weight of the fitting if you drill and screw through it - you must use the brackets provided.

 

[ruston]

Under the 1979 consumers rights act anything you buy has to last a reasonable amount of time that can be expected for that part/item/device ......most things electrical/electronic that doesn't have a natural short life (like a flourescent tube) can usually be expected to last at lest 4-5yrs, if you have a laptop say that failed after 3yrs and the reason was failure of the original parts then all you need to do is get a reputable repair company to put that in writing then take it back to the place of purchase with the report and stress your using you consumer rights then detail which one..... if the place of purchase lead you down the garden path then go direct to the manufacturers.

It can be a rocky road but eventually if you can hold your ground you usually get what you 'deserve' and a free repair or replacement.... now you may ask why get extended cover/waranty out then and i will reply because they are scamming you for money on something you are already covered for.

Senerio - i have an Hotpoint washer and during year 3 which by it normal warranty i was covered for parts only the dryer impeller failed now as i used to hold the Tag as an Hotpoint service Engineer at my previous firm i wrote a detailed bill to myself regarding the problem and charged the invoice as £0.00 so it was official... i got nowhere with Curry's the point of sale as the staff weren't clued up on my rights and just kept bleating if i took out extended warranty i would have been covered so i went direct to hotpoint complaints ....now the first question i ask was to the telephonist is are you able to help me and over-rule you standard policy to which she said no so i asked to be put through to someone who has that authority ...to cut a long story short here i got eventually got through to the right person i thus emailed them my service invoice explained my consumers rights act - stressed the warranty served with the washer dosn't legally hold any grounds and expressed il be taking legal action if they refuse or try to charge my for the callout parts and/or labour.......

Rather than the 15mins repair they took the whole washer and replaced it free of charge.... KNOW YOUR RIGHTS!

Never get extended warranties
Don't expect the point of sale or company help line to know your rights as they are not trained that far
Don't go silly if you have a failed product due to incorrect use lor accident like dropping your laptop etc you are probably wasting your time and theirs, you need to have proof from a recognised repair company before taking this approach.
Don't get nasty over the phone always remain calm and stand your ground and be fully clued up on your rights, if your aggressive or nasty they can use it against you and refuse to help on those grounds.
Be reasonable about the claim ... a part thats failed after 6yrs can be argued its done its service life and anything over 4yrs needs a good case for you to win.


Disclaimer .... i mentioned Hotpoint and Curries but this isn't a slate against the company or products im totally happy with the replacement.... ive done this now several time if not for myself then family and friends ....i estimate i save myself and others in excess of 5k just knowing my rights the last one was my mothers laptop which was sent back to Comet and they give her a report card that the 30month old laptap had a hard-drive failure so they charged her over £200 to repair it as her warranty had run out .... after my intervention we got fully reimbursed .... they argued though that we didn't provide an independent report on its failure which was our sticking point but speaking to the manager i i pointed out we was relying on the in house report they had provided and if they were to dispute the use of this then they are effectively saying their own repair service reports are not reliable which is a hole they dont want to get themselves in .... Kerching thankyou very much!

PS - detail what yo mean by failing i have had similar issues but installation instructions must be adhered to with these fittings as the case will not carry the weight of the fitting if you drill and screw through it - you must use the brackets provided.

That is a very useful post , and well done you!

 

[Darkwood]

Extended warranties are a mass scam and could be the undoing of many large companies in the future as they are often miss-sold...we could see a similar example that has happened to the banks and PPI .... all an extended warranty gives you is is a no hassle replacement or repair and if thats what you want to shell out sometimes hundreds of quid on then fine .... me i like my own money in my own bank

This guy is a millionaire of the back of been money wise and knowing his rights either way his site is a gem of info'

http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/shopping/consumer-rights-refunds-exchange

 

[JD6400]

Hi darkwood , that was above and beyond and I thank you for it ! As for the fault it is with the electronic ballasts failing , on one job alone we have had 37 out of the 60 or so fittings fail , which have been thankfully honoured all be it just the parts . But we have fitted around 5-600 of them in the time period that seems to be a problem !

 

[Darkwood]

Id be writing direct the manufacturers explain replacement parts have always been given but due to the scale of the problems you have had with the fittings it has laid heavily with labour costs and you would be interested to liaise with regards to coming to some sort of agreement as this is not an isolated issue and seems to be either a faulty batch problem or an actual design flaw with the ballasts themselves.... see what response you get ...who is the manufacturer ?

 

[JD6400]

Rather not say at the moment , but will say that they did not come from the Yes chain of wholesalers as they were still not about at that time !

 

[Darkwood]

Rather not say at the moment , but will say that they did not come from the Yes chain of wholesalers as they were still not about at that time !

Didn't mean the wholesalers meant what brand is the fitting ..... i had a massive run-in with the manufacturers of 8ft fittings from said un-named wholesaler they sent a rep out from this company and he even said the quality was crap as its all from china.. we had 60 8ft fittings and within 3yrs tubes were falling out over peoples heads because the end caps were poorly designed and the plastic hardened and the holding spring snapped off all of them. I supplied them with the BS standards to the endcaps and the sections they needed to comply to which was obvious they hadn't i threatened to report them which could see a massive recall ..... i was eventually liaising with the head of the company and he agreed to replace them all at their expense if i took matters no further... 1 guy can do a lot of damage if hes in the right

 

[Knobhead]

How has the thread arrived at dodgy light fittings?

 

[JD6400]

Didn't mean the wholesalers meant what brand is the fitting ..... i had a massive run-in with the manufacturers of 8ft fittings from said un-named wholesaler they sent a rep out from this company and he even said the quality was crap as its all from china.. we had 60 8ft fittings and within 3yrs tubes were falling out over peoples heads because the end caps were poorly designed and the plastic hardened and the holding spring snapped off all of them. I supplied them with the BS standards to the endcaps and the sections they needed to comply to which was obvious they hadn't i threatened to report them which could see a massive recall ..... i was eventually liaising with the head of the company and he agreed to replace them all at their expense if i took matters no further... 1 guy can do a lot of damage if hes in the right

That depends on if the said company is owned by the wholesaler !:nonod: Tony I know it is off subject , but you have to admit it is still better than 99% of the drivel than has been posted by want to be sparks just lately .:49:

 

[sonic]

Hi on the side you have an aux contact this will unclip. This maybe an under voltage trip which will make the button not stay in with power off what you nee to do is unclip the block and see if it stays on then if it does check you have continuity between the terminals 1L1-2T1 etc maybe just a faulty under voltage trip

 

[netblindpaul]

The aux on the side is a 2NO aux, not an undervoltage trip.
It's stuffed, just replace it.
£162 ish from RS free next day delivery it is not worth messing around with TBH.
You could re-use the aux, but that is only around £30 is again on top.
If you are going to give the client a warranty why mess around, £200 in materials is neither hear nor there in the grand scheme of things if they are running a motor that is drawing around 60A/phase & they have this facility on stop for the sake of around £300 including fitting TBH.

 

[Darkwood]

Hi on the side you have an aux contact this will unclip. This maybe an under voltage trip which will make the button not stay in with power off what you nee to do is unclip the block and see if it stays on then if it does check you have continuity between the terminals 1L1-2T1 etc maybe just a faulty under voltage trip

Also Expressed by Net' if you are not sure yourself refrain from giving advice it is just a standard auxillary NO/NC contact block and really not mistakable for anything else .... try to keep your advice within your experience... no offence meant.

 

[Knobhead]

Come on DW! When has lack of knowledge ever stopped anyone from spouting nonsense in here?

 

[ipf]

Even if you don't know, you have a right to an opinion........but if you're gonna spout crap, keep it to yourself.
Really wishfull thinking, I suppose.

 

[sonic]

I stand corrected! well done You three are straight to the point. People can have an opinion you are quite right and I will not be put off by you three big headed know it all people

 

[Darkwood]

Not big-headed by no means the clip block in the pic is clearly marked with the standard numbering for a NC/NO aux' contact block and really can't be mistaken for anything else unless you haven't got a clue about these things... i was trying to save you further embarrassment ive already explained to the OP exactly what the unit is for and how it operates so was strange you posted after with a wild guess.... had your post appeared before any replies we would have been a little more gentle .... Glad you aint put off its not the intention but read the thread through first

 

[davethsparky]

Better to say nothing and be thought a fool than say something and remove all doubt.

 

[gtmoto]

Guys and girls! Just like to say thanks for your help, yes it is for a very very large extractor fan that would quite literally suck your sock off, and is helping contribute to a £19,500 electricity bill every month. your help with some energy saving tips would be good but will save that for another thread. Ashliegh

 

[Tiny Spark]

Wish my Ms could suck like that!

 

[gtmoto]

She can and she's cheaper to run.

 

[Tiny Spark]

she's cheaper to run.

You have obviously never met my Ms!! LOL

 

[Marvo]

Hmmmm, please keep it nice and friendly guys

 

[gtmoto]

Sorry tiny spark, you left yourself wide open there,