Is this a Part P failure?

[Dustydazzler]

Is this a Part P failure?​

I'd say its a bit more than that.
There is no way the distribution circuit (armoured cable install) is compliant with the regs (BS7671) in many ways and its more than a deviation as (my understanding) deviations are permitted if no less safe than set out in the regs. This clearly is not and an installation certificate nor a building reg (Part P) certificate should ever have been issued.

I was told as a first year apprentice that you can't issue an EIC if there are any no compliances

The best the builder could issue is a EICR with a C2 for the Sub-main

 

[freddo]

The SWA cable also has no overload/fault protection and is relying entirely on the suppliers fuse. All that wiring needs attention.

 

[Dustydazzler]

That sub-main could be one of those 'temporary' builders hook-ups

 

[ipf]

How did he cut the armour off that close to the side of the box?
There was plenty of room in there to do it properly.

Is it definitely SWA or could it be Hi-Tuff (NYY-J)?

 

[freddo]

nyyj would have single phase colours in 3 core.

 

[timhoward]

Like you say, there are many issues present, but: the 3m rule isn't a reg

Just to clarify, I wasn't meaning DNO rules about tail lengths.
I was talking about the stuff in section 433 regarding position of an overcurrent device, which does mention 3m. (The same bit that allows you to run small conductors from a bus bar chamber to a switched fuse in certain circumstances). Not a regularly cited reg for sure but it's there.

But we unsurprisingly agree that whatever the finer points are it's not up to scratch!

 

[ipf]

nyyj would have single phase colours in 3 core.

Yes, the cable's been prepared before installation, it seems.

 

[brianmoooore]

The best the builder could issue is a EICR with a C2 for the Sub-main

Which is my whole point in #35. The single insulated cables are a C2 with no possible argument.
One C2, and the whole EIC is invalid.

 

[brianmoooore]

Earlier in the thread, the OP refers to the 100A incomer. That ancient electricity meter is clearly marked "40A Max", so that should be the size of the DNO fuse, and the maximum capacity of the supply.

 

[mainline]

There are several issues there but head and shoulders above the others is:
-Supplier fuse is OCPD device for a sub-main (which presumably exceeds 3m) (questionable CCC)
-lack of earthing/correct installation of SWA
-single insulated conductors accessible

Also, the DNO won't like the actual meter seal being cut, he probably was able to wriggle the head fuse carrier out as the top seal has a lot of play that's if he bothered pulling it.

Yeah, don't worry mate I'll sort it jobs a good un.
Happy days.

 

[mainline]

Just to clarify, I wasn't meaning DNO rules about tail lengths.
I was talking about the stuff in section 433 regarding position of an overcurrent device, which does mention 3m. (The same bit that allows you to run small conductors from a bus bar chamber to a switched fuse in certain circumstances). Not a regularly cited reg for sure but it's there.

But we unsurprisingly agree that whatever the finer points are it's not up to scratch!

I agree depending on what's on the end of the Swa and the length at least regarding overload it could be compliant.

 

[mainline]

Earlier in the thread, the OP refers to the 100A incomer. That ancient electricity meter is clearly marked "40A Max", so that should be the size of the DNO fuse, and the maximum capacity of the supply.

People often miss something that's staring you in the face.
Well spotted.

 

[littlespark]

Am I missing something?

There is not an incoming neutral to the meter??

 

[westward10]

It's fed by a split concentric cable.

 

[littlespark]

It's fed by a split concentric cable.

Ah ok... so a split con from the top of the fuse head into the black box with the warning on it just under the meter?

I've just never seen that done around here. always just regular 6181Y tails

 

[brianmoooore]

I've just never seen that done around here. always just regular 6181Y tails

Makes it difficult to shove a meter bypass wire up the incoming live. Have to take it straight from the service head instead.

 

[timhoward]

Am I missing something?

There is not an incoming neutral to the meter??

A few months back I stared for minutes at a similar one and arrived at same conclusion!

 

[westward10]

Yep or it is more likely concentric.

 

[freddo]

Those are standard anti-theft cable assemblies. A selection is shown here.

 

[Dave OCD]

The other amateurish oversight is using the black of the SWA as neutral and grey as the cpc, I come across this fairly often, very irritating.

 

[Dustydazzler]

The other amateurish oversight is using the black of the SWA as neutral and grey as the cpc, I come across this fairly often, very irritating.

Builders do it this way all the fecking time

 

[brianmoooore]

Annoying though it is, it doesn't actually contravene any reg. On the other hand, the lack of a blue sleeve on the black wire and a green/yellow (not just plain yellow!) sleeve on the grey wire does.

 

[loz2754]

The single insulated cables are a C2 with no possible argument

BPG4 issue 6 says otherwise.
Although, this is one instance where I disagree with BPG4, and agree with you. C2 any day of the week, as more often than not these meter cabinet doors are unlocked and left flapping in the summer breeze.

 

[glennuk]

Hi all,

Thank you all very much for all your input. My 100A comment was without me actually checking. I wrongly assumed it was 100A as my 1930s house is 100A so assumed all houses are 100A. Good spot! I've not looked too closely at the DB the builder installed. Probably higher than 40A the way things are looking!

Anyway, more than enough ammo to go back to the builder. My mate still owes him money so told him to get an independent electrician in to fix everything and knock it off the bill.

Thanks again and Happy New Year to you all!

 

[brianmoooore]

Should point out, that back in the day, when the whole supply, including the meter, was the responsibility of the local electricity board, not a lot of notice was taken of the rating of the meter when considering the supply capacity, so it wouldn't surprise me if the incoming fuse was 60A or even greater.
It's only since metering was separated from supply that the supply fuses have been maximised to the meter rating, as they now have a duty to protect the other party's equipment.
That meter must be approaching its retirement date, and will soon be changed, even if you don't fall the smart meter hype, and the new one will be rated at least 80A. This would be the time to check on what fuse is fitted, and to request an upgrade if it's too small.

 

[davesparks]

My mate still owes him money so told him to get an independent electrician in to fix everything and knock it off the bill.

That's not very sensible advice. They should make a formal complaint and give the original contractor the opportunity to address the issues and put their work right.

They should take proper legal advice on this as there are procedures that should be followed.

If they follow your advice then your mate may well find that they are being taken to court by the original contractor for the withheld money.

 

[glennuk]

That's not very sensible advice. They should make a formal complaint and give the original contractor the opportunity to address the issues and put their work right.

They should take proper legal advice on this as there are procedures that should be followed.

If they follow your advice then your mate may well find that they are being taken to court by the original contractor for the withheld money.

Thanks for the feedback. Will pass that on.

 

[Dustydazzler]

I have had it on a couple dozen occasions where the builder knows full well that they fecked up the wiring and after a complaint from the homeowner and a strongly worded EICR from me they agree XYZ money off the building work to put all the electrics right. On small jobs this might be as little as £500 but on some of the bigger jobs could be thousands to put right all the dodged wiring.
Get it all agreed in writing with the builder THEN get your own electrician of choice to put it all correct.

 

[someconsumer]

Probably tend to agree but how many get reported to NICEIC? I think mostly would get reported to the site agent.
Hopefully the NICEIC would act on one or two of them

It needs reporting so there is evidence.

The consumer needs to complain to the builder then if not success raise a complaint with the NICEIC.
However do not expect the NICEIC to resolve the matter.

Had exactly the same situation with a new build, the NICEIC used every loophole to avoid getting involved.
First they denied there were issues!
When pressed NICEIC agreed there are serious issues but in the view of the NICEIC inspector "the regulations don't apply".

Scandalous.

 

[Dustydazzler]

NICEIC WON'T DO ANYTHING

I looked at a new extension that a NIC DI had wired and on inspection there were live twisted cables slung in the loft with just a little twist of gaffa tape on them and I complained to the NIC this wasn't acceptable to leave a brand new install this way. The response was its the responibilty of the original electrician to come back and put right and nothing to do with them.

 

[brianmoooore]

BPG4 issue 6 says otherwise.
Although, this is one instance where I disagree with BPG4, and agree with you. C2 any day of the week, as more often than not these meter cabinet doors are unlocked and left flapping in the summer breeze.

On the grounds that it's in an enclosure only accessible with a tool??
Does that mean it's OK for all the wires in a loft to be 6491X singles, as long as I put a screw in the loft hatch before leaving?

 

[Pretty Mouth]

Never had any dealings with NICEIC personally.

I have a customer who previously used a local electrical firm for some garden lighting, sockets etc. NICEIC approved contractors, with their own shop, nice vans etc, high price, appeared very professional.

The garden lighting failed in a short space of time, and started tripping out the RCD, taking half of the house with it. My customer couldn't get the firm to come back to fix it - several times they agreed a time and date, then didn't turn up, and eventually they stopped answering the phone.

My customer complained to the NICEIC, who did in fact visit to survey the work, agreed that it wasn't up to scratch, and forced the company to return to correct the it. I don't know what incentive was used to get them back, but I would guess that their membership was under threat.

My story seems to be unique, as I never heard of anyone else having any success in complaining to NICEIC. It seems that they would only get involved when all other options had been exhausted.

 

[mainline]

On the grounds that it's in an enclosure only accessible with a tool??
Does that mean it's OK for all the wires in a loft to be 6491X singles, as long as I put a screw in the loft hatch before leaving?

I don't think you could call an attic an enclosure, if that were the case the house itself could be classed as one.

 

[Midwest]

On the grounds that it's in an enclosure only accessible with a tool??
Does that mean it's OK for all the wires in a loft to be 6491X singles, as long as I put a screw in the loft hatch before leaving?

I'm the only one that goes up into my loft, I'm defined as competent (well nearly), and I need a special tool to open said loft hatch. The ones at work are a friggin nightmare to open, almost need a degree in loft hatch opening.

A better analogy is needed.

 

[littlespark]

have you got confined space training for going into that loft?

 

[ipf]

have you got confined space training for going into that loft?

Team member of the next moon expedition?

 

[Midwest]

have you got confined space training for going into that loft?

No, but I needed to get the Xmas tree down, and Mrs M was giving me grief. So I carried out a dynamic risk assessment, and deemed the risks associated were overwhelmed by the rewards to all involved.