Looking at retraining and need advice

[alarm man]

when you go round quoting films as a means to life,youve got issues man.i thought i was mad...you seem to have this romantic idea of being a spark and life will be great,you get the girl and live happy ever after...its a job man.

 

[PaulM]

haha, I'm just being silly, and no I don't go around quoting movies everyday, but the point was relevent.

you sound like you've been in the game too long and become disolusioned with the "job" either that or you/your business is having a tough time right now (which I can sympathise with).

I guess that's the difference though, I want to do it because I know I will enjoy it - not because I want a "job" - I have one of those already and I hate it. :winkiss:

I'm planning 2-3-5 years ahead, not now, and thats they key thing, as I said, I'm not looking to earn "mega bucks" - simply just do something that I love for the remainder of my career.

 

[sbrown2]

What I would add its tough out there at the moment, as alarmman has said, but part of the gripe with so called real sparks is new people come into the trade with better marketing skills and take a share of what little work there is available.
You can use what ever route you want to get yourself to call yourself competent. If you have access to friends relatives who are electricians, depending on your craft skills and mathematical knowledge, you would be better off going down the competent persons route. This will get you to the point where you can earn money and get work notified. You can then embellish your technical knowledge doing a HNC/2330 etc later on. I think you can get to the competent person scheme without a NVQ3 I think but others on here can correct me on this.

 

[PaulM]

well i'm looking at moving into say, highway electrical installations/lighting - not to work on a building site or try to setup a local firm to take business away from existing sparkies, so no worries there

if 5-10yrs down the line i want to do that, then i've spent the time working as a sparkie to be entitled to do so.

i'm sure older sparkies looking for work resent young new apprentices coming in from college etc, taking jobs when they may be struggling to find their own, just as much as those retraining.

at the end of the day, no one owns the rights to be a sparkie (or any trade) or can dictate who should/should not be allowed to pursue that career path.

i'm currently working for one of the UK's largest energy suppliers, and am hoping my experience & knowledge of the energy market along with a relevent qualification, will allow me to progress to other more technical areas of the industry.

 

[sbrown2]

I was just suggesting a quick way into the industry

 

[PaulM]

oh ya wasn't having a dig but there's a lot of threads regarding these fly-by-night sparkies etc which I can understand.

don't know anyone on the electrical side, but know quite a few carpenters and gas fitters (perhaps i should do that lol)

 

[OllieNotts]

I wish I could live in this world paulm is posting from
I have seen lots of snobbery on this forum from 'time served/experienced' sparks who seem to resent anyone joining 'their industry'. I too am going down the college route and hopefully in two years I'll have the level 2&3 2330 and see where it gets me. I can run a pub, and drive an artic. Both industries are on their arse much like the electrical world but there's still people spending thousands on joining the transport industry thinking they'll earn 40k a year. A few do, and some can't even get a job as they have no experience and no one will give them a start in a 60-80k motor carrying £100000's worth of load. But it ticks over, and the ones who want it the most get it. I hate the job, every day going to work is an effort and putting in 70 hour weeks is no fun for me or my family. I'm not looking forward to the negativity in this industry already. I hope it's not as bad in the real world as it comes across on here. Us newbs come for advice on the best way to do things and very often folk get put down before they've even started. I understand you going on about there being no work but open those eyes and you'll see the whole country is same!! You're not the only ones suffering and you never had to live in a truck 5-6 days a week on your own wondering if someone is gonna drag you out of bed in the night and leave you stranded like I has to. Just because you have a trade doesn't mean you are entitled to all the work and no one new should be allowed in until you will give us permission ffs you're nothing special just cause you made tea for four years before getting your certificate!
I hope this down turn up-rises again and there'll be plenty of work to go around without the moaning and snobbery from the old timers. I'm not saying it's all of them cause it's not there's some bloody good help and advice on here but there's also a lot of un-balanced negativity to.
Good luck Paul, we are both gonna need lots of it! But it's hardly an impossible thought that in 5 years we'll have a career we enjoy being part of. And at that time all the haters will still be moaning about lack of work....modern sparkys are just no good....bla bla bla
Rant over.

 

[Des 56]

Its not all doom and gloom ollieNotts
Quite a few will be getting their pension books soon,then the opportunities will blossom

I think you are taking the views that sometimes are expressed as anti new entrants

Its not "new entrants" that most find hard to accept,its the quality of the available training that is the issue
Thats not the fault of new entrants,rather the way the electrical industry is panning out

Even with moans and groans the forum is still a very handy learning tool

and maybe could be appreciated as such, even when the perception is negative

 

[OllieNotts]

Of course I would never knock this place it's a fantastic place. I just think sometimes the doom and gloom mob are un necessarily negative. I agree with the negativity against the 5 week courses and believe they should be banned from new entrants like myself. I will aim for the highest marks through college and aim to provide a very high quality work when I'm given a chance to but as is the way of the world these days a lot of people just don't bother. Sparkys are no different to any other trade in that some will be of excellent quality and some will be crap. It's a shame but that's life, got any jobs going for a newb?

 

[sbrown2]

Its the way all trades are going and also none of the trades have enough apprentices for when an upturn comes. Therefore there will be a GENUINE need for people reskilling and crossing over to the trades. I think the OPer has IT skills which if brought over must be desirable to some employers. I've posted on here before and looking at all the property maintenance vans you see it seems correct, multiskilling seems the way to go.

 

[PaulM]

Not just IT but 10+ years of management experience as well - as someone who's been in the position of recruiting staff from service advisors/technicians through to managers myself, I know exactly what type of people I'd be looking for and I expect the markets to shift accordingly to adapt to that.

Gone are the days of training up for one career when you leave school and sticking to it for the next 40-50yrs+ (in fact those days went some time ago).

It is more important now, as highlighted above, that there are GENUINE professionals coming into the industry to fill what will be a gap in the market, through lack of apprentices/quality of staff (lets face it - generations are deteriorating every year in terms of quality, attitude, work ethic as the state of the country (let alone the economy) gets worse and worse) and that will leave more opportunities for hard working, proven professionals, to transfer their skills to different industries.

Personally, I think companies will be screaming out for good, honest, reliable employees - regardless of the background they are coming from.

If you disagree with that, then maybe you're too set in your ways and won't see it coming until it's too late. :38:

 

[sbrown2]

I agree with what you say.The only thing all of us cannot predict is when this recession, and the effects it has on all of us, is going to end.

The reason for my original answer to your post is, I am a sparky by trade, but through napit will be looking at assessment for electrical,plumbing, ventilation and air conditioning. I may or may not suceed in this. But what will most probably occur is I will have to do additional training after my assessments to get upto the standard they require (I HOPE!!)
Therefore get into the trade ASAP then bring yourself upto standard?

 

[PaulM]

I think you can safely say at LEAST 2 years before things are starting to look "healthy" again, I'd bet longer term and aim for 4-5 before we're back to that level though.

Which suits me as I'll be doing my regular job within this time, whilst training at college to work in the electrical field (and like yourself I'll probably be aiming to work in something more specialised than general installations).

But it's not a lot to pay out for a 2 year course IMO and further down the line I can establish exactly where I want to go (in terms of specific areas).

I wish all you existing sparkies well in the current climate, I'm sure others like myself who want to retrain, don't come here to say "HI IM GOING TO BE A SPARKY AND IMPEDE ON YOUR LIVELYHOOD".

There will be an increased demand when things get better and there will be more companies (even your own if you're an employer) who will want to recruit good quality people. With existing sparkies retiring and a lack of new ones coming in, I think it will just help keep the balance

 

[alarm man]

haha, I'm just being silly, and no I don't go around quoting movies everyday, but the point was relevent.

you sound like you've been in the game too long and become disolusioned with the "job" either that or you/your business is having a tough time right now (which I can sympathise with).

I guess that's the difference though, I want to do it because I know I will enjoy it - not because I want a "job" - I have one of those already and I hate it. :winkiss:

I'm planning 2-3-5 years ahead, not now, and thats they key thing, as I said, I'm not looking to earn "mega bucks" - simply just do something that I love for the remainder of my career.

i honestly wish you well,your going about it the right way,but be prepared for frustration,that will come,

regards

 

[PaulM]

I think if i'm honest with myself, i've avoided a lot of opportunities in life because of a fear of failure/not being cut out for it etc etc etc so it's time I just said "what the hell!" and go for it - now or never for me (and I'm not even THAT old! but I appreciate the clock is ticking loudly for doing something like this ) ty for your input and i know you are just trying to be realistic, i appreciate that.

 

[alarm man]

and I'm not even THAT old!

try pulling a 21yr old in a club,you then realise you are that old..:drool5:

 

[PaulM]

younger women never did it for me, besides, i've got a gorgeous woman already

 

[alarm man]

younger women never did it for me, besides, i've got a gorgeous woman already

you'll never make a spark with that attitude...:shocked3:

 

[PaulM]

Just noticed, this course looks to be over 9 months rather than 2 years (think with 2 evenings 6-9pm) so even better

 

[OllieNotts]

I doubt any college would do it in 9 months after seeing our schedule this year and I'm two full days there's a lot to get through. You'd effectively be doing 6 hours a week to my 15(minus breaks) so maybe that's just showing this years term time? Have you been to college to start yet? I started my h&s at work theory today zzzZZZZZ
Passed the mock exam before I even had any training on it, got everything wrong that had owt to do with electrics though! He he
Also got told if I wanna do my nvq next year along side the level 3 I'll have to stump up 3k may have to put that on the back burner for now....

 

[PaulM]

Well started last night, did the basics on atoms etc (which was handy as I'd been reading up on Ohms law in the day - pretty simple stuff ).

Tonight we're starting the H&S stuff.

They laid out the course plan and tbh it seems like it will be pretty easy (they've even said they expect the majority to pass with distinction) I'll stay grounded though but am sure it will be fine.

They asked us just to think about something last night, not homework, but just to get the mind ticking.

On a 230v socket, if the Live is passing 230v - what is the flow of current (vs the flow of electrons) and what would be the voltage of the Neutral socket.

Most people just said 0 straight away as it's neutral, he didnt confirm if that was true or ntot but just to think about it and why.

The only thing I can think he's after, is an explanation as to why it's neutral, which would lead me on to polarization? and the fact if it wasn't neutral/there was a break in the neutral connection - effectively the appliance/device you were working on would then be live and a shock hazard.

But I'm not sure if I'm going completely off track here lol

Anyone else ever been asked this?

 

[topquark]

A few points ... firstly you measure voltage (aka Potential Difference) between two points in a circuit. So, Live isn't "passing" 230V, rather it has a 230V potential when compared to another point such as Neutral (or Earth, but that would trip an RCD/RCBO if you tried to measure it!). Secondly the "flow" of electrons is current. Thirdly the voltage of the neutral socket (if you're talking voltage it has to be in comparison to another point).

I have absolutely no idea what an atom is though

 

[Richard Burns]

In nine months I think you may still find we are in a difficult place (could be in two years as well!) financially so may be worth investigating in detail, as you do the course with your college, the additional qualifications that may be useful to you in the direction you wish to go. Then whilst you are still in your current job, although it may be tedious, you can then get all the qualifications available for your chosen career (that do not require employment in the electrical area) while still maintaining a quality income.
Good luck with the course and I hope that the results end up positive for you.

 

[Guest 004]

Hi all i have worked as an apprentice via JTL for 2.5 years in 2007, i gained my key skills and 2330 levels 2+3. I lost employment and so joined the army after a year of trying to gain an apprenticeship again at the age of 19, i am now 21 and have just started a 2 month trail with a decent firm and was wondering if self funding the nvq via vq training would be better than trying to restart with JTL as i heard funding is an issue now for me due to time already spent at college and my age etc.. I really dont mind self funding my nvq and am2 but have on the other hand heard this route can be risky as when you get JIB gold card it will say adult trained rather than time served apprentice which can put employers off, is this true. Any replys/advice would be great.
Thanks.​

I have Industry Assessed on mine, never had a problem with firms, just other sparks making comments, as they think they are better than me, because they did a JIB apprenticeship, and I did not, but I always work alongside them!!!!

 

[Richard Burns]

As Topquark says voltage is potential difference not requiring a flow of current. A potential difference is as it says a difference i.e must be related to another point. In most cases we measure with respect to earth which is defined as zero volts.
Although actually measuring potential difference will require a very small current, voltmeters aim to have effectively near infinite resistance (so near zero current from ohms law) to avoid a drop in measured potential difference occasioned by current use.
Voltage drop occurs through resistance and the intent of an electrical circuit is that all the power is consumed in the current using equipment and the voltage on the other side (the neutral) has dropped to near zero, but you still have some resistance in the wiring back to the substation so it will not be completely zero.

So Topquark you do not know what an atom is but your name is a subatomic particle!

 

[PaulM]

Yeah thats cool, i understand about the flow of current etc and that this isn't `voltage` (just mix up my wordings a bit at the moment).

my question was regarding the point about would there be any voltage at neutral.

now i think i understand the queston, and the answer would be theres no voltage at the neutral socket, because voltage is what is at the live socket - waiting to flow into the circuit (when switched on/plugged in)

so would there be current flowing to the neutal with a device connected?

 

[topquark]

.......
So Topquark you do not know what an atom is but your name is a subatomic particle!

I have trouble seeing the bigger picture

 

[Richard Burns]

Voltage does not flow, current flows. If you measure the voltage across a switch that is off there will be a voltage but no current flowing. If you close the switch then across the switch there will be no voltage (i.e no difference) but there will be current flowing.
In a standard series circuit the current flow will be the same at every point in the circuit so will flow in the neutral.

 

[topquark]

Yeah thats cool, i understand about the flow of current etc and that this isn't `voltage` (just mix up my wordings a bit at the moment).

my question was regarding the point about would there be any voltage at neutral.

now i think i understand the queston, and the answer would be theres no voltage at the neutral socket, because voltage is what is at the live socket - waiting to flow into the circuit (when switched on/plugged in)

so would there be current flowing to the neutal with a device connected?

You'll notice I chose my wording carefully: The flow of electrons is current, however a current isn't necessarily a flow of electrons, it's a flow of charge.

As Richard has said, when dealing with a Voltage or PD question, it is often with respect to earth (always check when asked).

So if we were to measure between L-E we would see a potential of around 230V (say 238V). If we measure N-E we would see around 0V (ideally it would be 0V but can be affected by a number of factors (assume it's 0V for now).

In order to get the circuit to do useful work we want the current to flow between L and N so that's where we want a useable PD. (keep in mind that we are talking Alternating Current (AC) here so the flow of charge (electrons in this case) will change direction every 1/50th of a second).

 

[PaulM]

Cool, and yep didn't mean voltage flows but the current/atoms (electrons/neutrons/positrons)etc

I've got my head around this part, just gotta make sure to get my wording right

So with respect to the point of "what is the voltage at neutral" technically 0 is right, but on a completed/open circuit, it then has a PD of 230v?

 

[Richard Burns]

One could say that the voltage measured at the neutral terminal of a socket in respect to earth would be nominally zero.
If measuring the voltage across Line to Neutral (on an open circuit) the value noted would be 230V but this is the voltage of the Line with respect to Neutral.
So the potential difference between Line and Neutral is 230V, the potential difference between Line and Earth is 230V. Therefore the potential difference between Neutral and Earth is 230V-230V =0V.

Just to confuse the issue, on a three phase circuit we talk about 400V but this is the potential difference between two Lines, not with respect to earth. Each Line with respect to earth is 230V. On three phase it is not simple addition it is vector addition, which you will no doubt cover later.

 

[PaulM]

awesome, got it and yes, lets leave the 400v stuff till later, thanks again all - input & support here has been excellent.

 

[piratebillybob]

im 30 and i went back to college to do the 2330s. Ended up getting an apprenticeship by the skin of my teeth and after 13 months of looking. If youre in the energy industry apply to eon (or any other national company that does apprenticeships) in january, they like mature candidates. You will have to survive on a rather low income for 3-4 years though. I dont want to be negative but if i was 40+ and had management experience, i would be looking more into doing an electrical engineering degree with a uni or open university. I spent 2 years doing 2330 levels 2 and 3 and a year looking for an apprenticeship. In that time i could have completed a degree in electrical engineering and opened up a huge amount of doors for myself. Even when you get your 2330 level 3 and have to do work based training to get the nvq youre still only going to be paid peanuts for your apprenticeship (minimum apprenticeship wage if £2.50 per hour even if your 45) I thought ild be lapped up. Im 30, management experience, all distinctions in my exams, great cv, hard worker, articulate, degree level education but noone wanted me because i didnt have onsite experience. I would also question whether you really want to be doing electrical installation right up until you retire. My career plan is that i end up in a technician role or testing and inspection role for my last 10-15 years. the last thing ild want to be doing when im 65 is lugging a massive SWA around :/ And if you were to just do the domestic electrical installer courses then there will be lots of stuff you still wont be able to do even with part p, 2392 and the regs. its vicious out there. it really is I dont think people are being negative, i think people are trying to paint a realistic picture of how tough it is so that others can make informed choices. Wanting a career change is great. I havent read all 9 pages of this thread but i really think that deciding to do the 2330 levels 2 and 3 at your age then hoping a local company will give you an apprenticeship is unrealistic. It sounds like a great plan but i dont agree on that particular route if thats the one youve chosen. Especially considering there are better routes to go.

 

[PaulM]

Hey thanks for your post, I'm not intending to do an apprenticeship that's just paying £2.50 per hour and I'm not sure where you get that ridiculous number from - the company I work for now pay £14-15,000 starting wage and increase to £18,000 after 18 months - then progressing to £28,000.

Not intending to work sites until I retire either, I'll see exactly where I go once qualified, but will most likely be setting up my own business at some point further down the line.

Electrical engineering was something I looked at, but not what I want to do. From what I could tell, that focuses more on the design/management/operation side of things.

And I'm 36 not 40+ also I don't want to go and work as a manager for someone else; I have my own management style and have had enough of dealing with poor managers in higher positions, hence I need to be my own boss.

It's good that you managed to get an apprenticeship, but I also have some friends that run their own carpentry businesses but employ sparkies to do the electrical side of their installations, so thats a possible option to.

The domestic installers course is not something I chose for the exact reasons you listed, hence I'll be getting fully qualified through my chosen route.

But regardless of how long it took you to achieve this, what qualies you have, whether even I as a manager would employ you as an employee (based on how you present yourself not just bits of paper - which can easily sway a decision over someone qualified/retarded vs someone unqualified/buckets of common sense/savvy) you still achieved what you set out to do.

I can handle a few years of crap money, and fully expect to be on a low income whilst I do this, but i'm a long term thinker - if you read the full thread you'll see I could easily stay in IT and do further courses in that and earn 35-40k - but i'm sick of working in IT

(we also have 2-3 people on the course with diploma's in electrical/engineering needing to do the 2330+ because the work they want to do - their qualification is no good for).

 

[piratebillybob]

The National Minimum Wage rates : Directgov - Employment Sorry its gone up to £2.60. They can pay you that for the first year of your apprentice regardless of your age, and they do pay that. After the first year then the minimum wage kicks in. Having been at college for two years and looked for an apprenticeship for 13 months I know that if companies can pay people £2.50 they do. £95 per week or £100 per week is more common than yould think. The apprenticeship i have with a national company pays a decent wage. Quite a few of the day release apprentices got £100 per week while doing their 2330 level 3. And to be honest, theres so many people doing 2330 now that people holding out for £10 an hour just for completing the 2330 level 3 are either very lucky, well connected or just deluding themselves.

 

[OllieNotts]

You speak sense bob, but Paul won't listen. It's like he's got his fingers in his ears and he's screaming la la laaaa
He knows the economy will pick up, he knows he will get work but he knows it won't be easy and he also knows it's long term not short term despite every bit of advice given he knows....you know?
I wish you all the best Paul, but seriously you do sound rather arrogant with your know it all persona. This is the reason the thread is probably the longest over on re-training. A lot of folk have given you advice and you just shove it off, I wish I had your optimism

 

[piratebillybob]

well i hope hes right. it was so upsetting to be faced with not getting an apprenticeship which was very much a reality for a while. Luckily i landed on my feet for once in my life. But to see other people work so hard and not get through is heartbreaking. So even if he is a tad over-confident, i really hope it works out as i hope it works out for me and all the others who are trying to better themselves in a system that really doesnt reward people trying to better themselves

 

[fuzzydunlop]

Hey thanks for your post, I'm not intending to do an apprenticeship that's just paying £2.50 per hour and I'm not sure where you get that ridiculous number from - the company I work for now pay £14-15,000 starting wage and increase to £18,000 after 18 months - then progressing to £28,000.

Not intending to work sites until I retire either, I'll see exactly where I go once qualified, but will most likely be setting up my own business at some point further down the line.

Electrical engineering was something I looked at, but not what I want to do. From what I could tell, that focuses more on the design/management/operation side of things.

And I'm 36 not 40+ also I don't want to go and work as a manager for someone else; I have my own management style and have had enough of dealing with poor managers in higher positions, hence I need to be my own boss.

It's good that you managed to get an apprenticeship, but I also have some friends that run their own carpentry businesses but employ sparkies to do the electrical side of their installations, so thats a possible option to.

The domestic installers course is not something I chose for the exact reasons you listed, hence I'll be getting fully qualified through my chosen route.

But regardless of how long it took you to achieve this, what qualies you have, whether even I as a manager would employ you as an employee (based on how you present yourself not just bits of paper - which can easily sway a decision over someone qualified/retarded vs someone unqualified/buckets of common sense/savvy) you still achieved what you set out to do.

I can handle a few years of crap money, and fully expect to be on a low income whilst I do this, but i'm a long term thinker - if you read the full thread you'll see I could easily stay in IT and do further courses in that and earn 35-40k - but i'm sick of working in IT

(we also have 2-3 people on the course with diploma's in electrical/engineering needing to do the 2330+ because the work they want to do - their qualification is no good for).

........

 

[PaulM]

Actually, i've read and listened to everything everyone has written on here, so please (others) leave your stupidity out of it - and i do appreciate most things that people have written.

Fact is, at the moment I can afford to do this, i'm betting on things picking up in 2-3 years, probably 5 - I don't see what's hard to understand about that, just look at how things have gone over the last few decades.

It's hard if you're coming on to this thread and reading the last post and going "haha lalalala thinks he knows it all" - i'll be the first to admit i do not and actually know very little about the industry - i don't work in it - yet.

But I'm confident that with hard study and hard work - I will make it work - if you can't accept that purely as someone being determined and driven, then that's up to you.

End of the day, I got through some very tough times with my sanity in tact, without the need to go off with "stress" or "sickness" or whatever excuse you want to rely on to get out of the way of lifes **** - my kids are my driving force, anyone that has them will understand this - and that is why I am so confident that i will MAKE it work.

I do not expect things to fall into my lap - if it doesn't work out, then that's my own fault, but at the end of the day I've lost nothing by trying.

(ps you may as well lock this thread - i started college this week and am loving it )

 

[alarm man]

End of the day, I got through some very tough times with my sanity in tact, without the need to go off with "stress" or "sickness" or whatever excuse you want to rely on to get out of the way of lifes ****

real men cry paul,sometimes people suffer from stress and sickness,its not a failure in life to suffer those problems,ive done all three doesnt mean your less of a man..

 

[PaulM]

i'm not saying it does, and if you've been there then I feel for you, but don't take what I say personally. I've gotten through some very tough/dark times too, but my reaction to that is to take on more and fight back even harder.

I don't understand people that consistently look at the negatives in life - in fact I find those people unbearable - within the 1,000s of responses on this thread, there ARE stories from some who took the chance, retrained and MADE IT WORK - it wasn't easy - but they did it.