Plastic Water main with copper throughout.

[davesparks]

Re: Plastic Water main with coper throughout.

I didn't just say it was extraneous for the sake of it and if you had bothered to read the thread you'd see i was asked for an opinion only not price for any potential work!!

I did read the thread.
You said you thought the reading may have been influenced by the gas bond, if this is the case then the test has been carried out incorrectly.

What is the 0.9 you mentioned earlier? Is it ohms, kilohms or megohms?

 

[rattlehead85]

Re: Plastic Water main with coper throughout.

I did, you said you thought the low reading may be due to the main bond on the gas. Therefore you must have carried out the test incorrectly for it to be possible for the gas bond to influence the test result.

Hang on.... in the thread it clearly says i removed the main earth and tested between the earthing conductor and the metal pipework by the stopcock. So how would the gas bond influence the test if it aint connected to the main earthing conductor during the test?? Where the gas issue comes into it as was clearly pointed out was the fact that the water reading could be because of a connection through the boiler onto the gas pipe which in itself is extraneous so clearly you haven't read it correct.

 

[davesparks]

Re: Plastic Water main with coper throughout.

In post one you said you thought the gas bond may have affected the test result. The only way it could affect it is if it was connected during the test!

Now what units is that 0.9 in?

 

[rattlehead85]

Re: Plastic Water main with coper throughout.

The 0.9 ohm value was attributed to the gas bond test i carried out between the m.e.t and the gas bond with the bond disconnected at the gas meter position. This was completed to confirm the gas bond was actually continuos.
How do you expect me to separate the gas pipework from the water on a heating system??

 

[rattlehead85]

Re: Plastic Water main with coper throughout.

Davesparks im sure you have unintentionally misinterpreted what i am trying to point out here.

 

[spark 68]

Re: Plastic Water main with coper throughout.

I actually thought the R2 reading of 0.9 was from the water pipe just after the stop tap in copper back to the MET with the gas bond connected.

As per GN3 relates to the 0.05 reading between "points" not necessarily between the clamp and the pipe, what I have done before in this situation is to measure between the disconnected gas bond at the CU and a nearby water pipe, or the wander lead back from the same bond disconnected at the CU to the copper part of the of the incomer. whatever is easier in a given situation.

 

[davesparks]

Re: Plastic Water main with coper throughout.

I don't expect you to disconnect the gas and water from the boiler manifold. But if the water main has become extraneous due to its permanent connection to the gas main at that point then in my opinion the water pipework is then extraneous.
Is the incoming gas pipe plastic or metal? Does the gas pipe produce exactly the same reading when tested for extraneous?

 

[rattlehead85]

Re: Plastic Water main with coper throughout.

I carried out the tests correctly, the fact that i got 0 megohms on the IR test as i mentioned in post 1 between the water stopcock and the main earth with it removed from the MET proves its extraneous by whatever means.

 

[rattlehead85]

Re: Plastic Water main with coper throughout.

I don't expect you to disconnect the gas and water from the boiler manifold. But if the water main has become extraneous due to its permanent connection to the gas main at that point then in my opinion the water pipework is then extraneous.
Is the incoming gas pipe plastic or metal? Does the gas pipe produce exactly the same reading when tested for extraneous?

gas is metal, the gas has a bond which i confirmed on a separate test. The gas is extraneous. As i said i cant prove the water is getting its extraneous nature because of the connection through the boiler manifold or if it is because behind the tiled panel it is either linked to the soil stack or it runs back to ground. Hence why i was saying it would be desirable to run a bond to the water.

 

[rattlehead85]

Re: Plastic Water main with coper throughout.

The whole point of this thread was to see what others would decide faced with this situation baring in mind i was a third party asked to give an opinion on an EIC and a subsequent EICR carried out by a different contractor.

 

[spark 68]

Re: Plastic Water main with coper throughout.

Okay if we assume the gas pipe is extraneous and is bonded correctly at the correct point at the incomer to mitigate that fact, then how does the water become extraneous just by being earthy to the gas pipe via the boiler which is already bonded ? it cannot become extraneous via the plastic incomer, it is only earthy from inside the equipotential zone, unless as E54 said it runs back through zone, concrete slab etc.

 

[rattlehead85]

Re: Plastic Water main with coper throughout.

Okay if we assume the gas pipe is extraneous and is bonded correctly at the correct point at the incomer to mitigate that fact, then how does the water become extraneous just by being earthy to the gas pipe via the boiler which is already bonded ? it cannot become extraneous via the plastic incomer, it is only earthy from inside the equipotential zone, unless as E54 said it runs back through zone, concrete slab etc.

Or somewhere behind the panel is either running back into the ground or links to that soil pipe i mentioned which would mean the water would require a bond right??

 

[spark 68]

Re: Plastic Water main with coper throughout.

Or somewhere behind the panel is either running back into the ground or links to that soil pipe i mentioned which would mean the water would require a bond right??

Pretty much , that is why I look for the very low reading consistent with the gas bond, or the 23k or above reading.

The whole idea is to keep everything inside at the same potential, which is why we bond as near to the incomer as practical.

 

[rattlehead85]

Re: Plastic Water main with coper throughout.

Right im telling the client on monday to get the bloke back to primarily get the soil pipe done as should have been from the get go and secondly advise the water which i will back up in my covering letter. Job done[emoji106]

 

[davesparks]

Re: Plastic Water main with coper throughout.

It's unusual for a soil pipe to need bonding as they aren't usually available to be touched within the installation. Unless it still has the original lead wastes etc.

 

[rattlehead85]

Re: Plastic Water main with coper throughout.

It's unusual for a soil pipe to need bonding as they aren't usually available to be touched within the installation. Unless it still has the original lead wastes etc.

Soil waste runs up through the bathroom cupboard slap bang next to a spur serving a low level tubular heater.

 

[Des 56]

Re: Plastic Water main with coper throughout.

Man installs wiring,issues certificate (which does not include water bond because its plastic incomer) tests confirm its not extraneous
He bonds the gas service because it requires to be so

Other man comes along and fits boiler (which now links the non extraneous water pipes to the extraneous gas supply pipe)

Eicr carried out and states the water pipe "needs bonding" because it does not satisfy the inconclusive tests carried out
The tests are inconclusive because the gas cannot be separated from the water

It seems to me the original installer has a reasonable argument that his actions were valid, argument can be made by him that unclear test procedure has made this an issue rather than the original installation

 

[Geordie Spark]

Re: Plastic Water main with coper throughout.

Man installs wiring,issues certificate (which does not include water bond because its plastic incomer) tests confirm its not extraneous
He bonds the gas service because it requires to be so

Other man comes along and fits boiler (which now links the non extraneous water pipes to the extraneous gas supply pipe)

Eicr carried out and states the water pipe "needs bonding" because it does not satisfy the inconclusive tests carried out
The tests are inconclusive because the gas cannot be separated from the water

It seems to me the original installer has a reasonable argument that his actions were valid, argument can be made by him that unclear test procedure has made this an issue rather than the original installation

That's it - in a nutshell! :hurray:

Now that you've cleared that up, can you clarify something that's been puzzling me all through this thread?

WHAT is this "coper" in the thread title?? :confused5:

 

[David Marshall]

Re: Plastic Water main with coper throughout.

Just put one in cover your back as water still conducts and you dont know how far the plastic main goes I'm obviously using my immagination here but at least it has a MPC anyway the water my be connected to a gas combi or something. I would not dwell on this issue just put one in

 

[davesparks]

Re: Plastic Water main with coper throughout.

Just put one in cover your back as water still conducts and you dont know how far the plastic main goes I'm obviously using my immagination here but at least it has a MPC anyway the water my be connected to a gas combi or something. I would not dwell on this issue just put one in

Water alone is non-conductive, impure water such as that which is supplied by the public water mains has limited conductivity.
As far as I know the volume of water in a 600mm length of 22mm plastic pipe has sufficient resistance as to be considered an insulator at 250V