Replacing Fuse Board

[Darkwood]

First of all I absolutely agree with everything that has been said here regarding safety.



Makes me wonder why not though...



But is it though? I'm not trying to get at anyone at all but I just think people are a bit too inclined to believe anyone appearing to be an authority figure without question: let's recap; we have:

- no specific act of parliament relating to this (I couldn't find one when a trawled the internet a while ago, and nobody has yet come up with one on this thread

Lets look at it from a different perspective.. someone elses property and you break the security seals to gain access

- no legal precedent (not one single prosecution according to Paul.M and others I have read)
This argument has been going for several decades, long before the internet and to add to that, its a very hard case to prove from the DNO's point of view, all the accused needs to say is the seals were already cut- having said that the new generation of smart meters log power failures and now consumers may be made to account for loss of power to a meter if no network fault was reported - any householder put to question with fear of action will happily dob in the electrician who swapped the board to protect their own interests.

- thousands of people pulling cutouts up and down the country for decades and either never being reported (e.g. by the DNOs), or the reports not being acted on by the police/crown prosecution/procurator fiscal, which doesn't say much for those bodies confidence that such a case would be successful

- stickers on equipment up and down the country stating that it's an offense to 'tamper'.

I think I might start putting stickers on the CUs I fit stating that it is an offense for anyone else to carry out maintenance/alterations or to use the CU to isolate circuits for maintenance etc. Would that an offense make it, I wonder?

Now your getting silly.. the CU is the property of the consumer or landlord etc who has every right to use anyone to service, make additions to,test, or replace at request.

Afterthought: If person A fixes his/her property to person B's property, and person B then has to temporarily remove person A's property in order to carry out essential maintenance to his/her own property, I wonder if that is vandalism...

Your taking a specific action I.E. cutting seals on the DNO's property and trying to apply the argument to everyday situations, that is not in anyway a comparison.
At the end of the day tampering with the DNO's service equipment is a criminal offense and this is regardless of the strength of past evidence of prosecutions etc.. we all sympathise an we have all made the same argument at some point through the sheer stupidity of the situe' but it is how it is and from a legal perspective you are not allowed to tamper, remove seals, pull fuse of the DNO's equipment without their authorisation.

 

[Midwest]

As I posted before, SSE are just one DNO who have a constructive policy on the procedure for removing their main fuse. I suspect there are other DNO's who have a similar policy (I know there are some that do not). I think some electricians are too shy to ask, expecting to be told no. Why not ring you local depot and ask?

As regards a national policy, I remember reading in a recent scheme periodical, that this issue is back on the menu, again.

 

[Stu1312]

Having worked on the metering side of this for a good few years I see everyone's point and I agree that there needs to be a process in place to allow electricians to pull fuses. But this needs to done with correct ppe, don't just assume that it's only the old cut outs that will do you some damage. I'll dig out the photo I've got at a flash over on a 100amp 3 phase cut out that looked brand new.

If you doing it do it safely, get some LV gloves and some shrouds and if it's a cut out your not sure is safe don't pull the fuse.

 

[7029 dave]

Cheap are these seals.

 

[Selfmade]

Your taking a specific action I.E. cutting seals on the DNO's property and trying to apply the argument to everyday situations, that is not in anyway a comparison.
At the end of the day tampering with the DNO's service equipment is a criminal offense and this is regardless of the strength of past evidence of prosecutions etc.. we all sympathise an we have all made the same argument at some point through the sheer stupidity of the situe' but it is how it is and from a legal perspective you are not allowed to tamper, remove seals, pull fuse of the DNO's equipment without their authorisation.

I'm afraid I still don't agree. We still have no act of parliament and no legal precedent so all that remains is to compare it to other actions we see as similar. You see it as similar to breaking into someone else's property (I hope that's a fair interpretation), I see it as similar to a situation where a person willingly leaves his/her property inside someone else's, knowing that it will have to be moved/removed etc to allow future maintenance. I don't see any evidence that it's a criminal offense or even grounds for a civil case, and I don't think repeatedly saying it is makes it so.

As for my comment about putting stickers on CUs prohibiting others from working on them - yes it was silly, it was meant to be, lol. It was just meant to demonstrate that the existence of a sticker stating that something is criminal does not in itself make it criminal!

I'm not meaning to get at you or anyone else on here. I just think the industry as a whole is being too ready to sit back and take the blame here. I actually think it's pretty disgraceful for large organizations (the DNOs) to accuse en-mass an entire industry of routine criminal action without being prepared to take action accordingly.

I'm probably not gonna write any more on this, for the time being anyway; I've had my little rant lol and will let other people make up their own minds!

 

[davesparks]

I'm afraid I still don't agree. We still have no act of parliament and no legal precedent so all that remains is to compare it to other actions we see as similar. You see it as similar to breaking into someone else's property (I hope that's a fair interpretation), I see it as similar to a situation where a person willingly leaves his/her property inside someone else's, knowing that it will have to be moved/removed etc to allow future maintenance. I don't see any evidence that it's a criminal offense or even grounds for a civil case, and I don't think repeatedly saying it is makes it so.

As for my comment about putting stickers on CUs prohibiting others from working on them - yes it was silly, it was meant to be, lol. It was just meant to demonstrate that the existence of a sticker stating that something is criminal does not in itself make it criminal!

I'm not meaning to get at you or anyone else on here. I just think the industry as a whole is being to ready to sit back and take the blame here. I actually think it's pretty disgraceful for large organizations (the DNOs) to accuse en-mass an entire industry of routine criminal action without being prepared to take action accordingly.

I'm probably not gonna write any more on this, for the time being anyway; I've had my little rant lol and will let other people make up their own minds!

What do you mean no act of parliament? You've got the ESQCR and electricity act which deal with DNO equipment and metering for starters

 

[shanky887614]

What do you mean no act of parliament? You've got the ESQCR and electricity act which deal with DNO equipment and metering for starters

im sure it says tampering with dno equipment now removing the fuse to replace the tails from the outgoing side of the meter isnt tampering.

besides im sure they wouldnt take you to court and go against the electricity at work act etc.

now if you have the correct ppe then they wouldnt have a leg to stand on if they say it is for safety.

i doubt a single phase fuse carrier breaking apart wouldnt instantly burst into a fireball that completely engulfs you.

please correct me if im wrong.

 

[davesparks]

i doubt a single phase fuse carrier breaking apart wouldnt instantly burst into a fireball that completely engulfs you.

please correct me if im wrong.

No fireball but it has the potential for an arc flash of significant proportions.

Fireballs take quite a bit of work to create, we've spent a bit of time on perfecting them.

 

[stevethesparks]

View attachment 29601 Cheap are these seals.

I should think that legally as the sign is still in place the fine as stated applies.
It would be tempting to leave a £2.00 coin on the meter :thinking:

 

[davesparks]

im sure it says tampering with dno equipment now removing the fuse to replace the tails from the outgoing side of the meter isnt tampering.

besides im sure they wouldnt take you to court and go against the electricity at work act etc.

now if you have the correct ppe then they wouldnt have a leg to stand on if they say it is for safety.

i doubt a single phase fuse carrier breaking apart wouldnt instantly burst into a fireball that completely engulfs you.

please correct me if im wrong.

I think you'll find there is probably no offence in pulling the cutout fuse under the electricity act, but there will be an offence in putting it back in as the laws are concerned with making a connection without permission rather than disconnecting.
They wouldn't be going against the electricity at work act, you would not be complying with it when you pull the cutout fuse. The correct way to deal with the situation is to contact the DNO to temporarily disconnect, this would be recognised as the correct way to so it as far as the EAWR is concerned. You will find it hard to come up with a risk assessment which says it is safer for you to do it without the correct training etc than it is for a DNO operative to do it.

 

[shanky887614]

I think you'll find there is probably no offence in pulling the cutout fuse under the electricity act, but there will be an offence in putting it back in as the laws are concerned with making a connection without permission rather than disconnecting.
They wouldn't be going against the electricity at work act, you would not be complying with it when you pull the cutout fuse. The correct way to deal with the situation is to contact the DNO to temporarily disconnect, this would be recognised as the correct way to so it as far as the EAWR is concerned. You will find it hard to come up with a risk assessment which says it is safer for you to do it without the correct training etc than it is for a DNO operative to do it.

yet it is safe for a meter monkey with 148 hours training to get the cert to change meters.

 

[davesparks]

yet it is safe for a meter monkey with 148 hours training to get the cert to change meters.

I don't know anything about the training for meter fitters, but 148 hours sounds like a long time to learn a pretty basic job assuming you are referring to the guys who just do domestic SP meters I would have expected it to be more like a couple of days.

 

[shanky887614]

I don't know anything about the training for meter fitters, but 148 hours sounds like a long time to learn a pretty basic job assuming you are referring to the guys who just do domestic SP meters I would have expected it to be more like a couple of days.

thats for smart meters lol acording to c+g

 

[davesparks]

thats for smart meters lol acording to c+g

Nearly 4 weeks to install basic meters sounds like a long time to me, what's your issue?

 

[shanky887614]

Nearly 4 weeks to install basic meters sounds like a long time to me, what's your issue?

im quite surprised tbh

 

[Darkwood]

I'm afraid I still don't agree. We still have no act of parliament and no legal precedent so all that remains is to compare it to other actions we see as similar. You see it as similar to breaking into someone else's property (I hope that's a fair interpretation), I see it as similar to a situation where a person willingly leaves his/her property inside someone else's, knowing that it will have to be moved/removed etc to allow future maintenance. I don't see any evidence that it's a criminal offense or even grounds for a civil case, and I don't think repeatedly saying it is makes it so.

I'm sorry you lost me here.. the DNO cutout and meters are a permenant install, they fit millions of them and they should remain as fitted, yes circumstances often arise where relocation is required or access to terminals is needed to replace a CU but as its their sole property only they can give permission or do it themselves, your argument is full of flaws... If a company fits a bandit in a pub through a contract and a guy changes notes into coins over the bar and the bandit takes the money then the bar runs out of coins - does that mean they can break into the machine for change (leaving the notes behind) just because someone elses property is in their property -NO!

As for my comment about putting stickers on CUs prohibiting others from working on them - yes it was silly, it was meant to be, lol. It was just meant to demonstrate that the existence of a sticker stating that something is criminal does not in itself make it criminal!

I'm not meaning to get at you or anyone else on here. I just think the industry as a whole is being too ready to sit back and take the blame here. I actually think it's pretty disgraceful for large organizations (the DNOs) to accuse en-mass an entire industry of routine criminal action without being prepared to take action accordingly.

As I said earlier we all sympathise with the concept of your argument and yes there should be a better system and this has been argued long before you were born, and welcome to the realisation of the stupidity of it, your searching for a specific parliment act but its not the case as it falls under general laws of property and access.

I'm probably not gonna write any more on this, for the time being anyway; I've had my little rant lol and will let other people make up their own minds!

Don't get deterred about your opinions in putting it into context, this is a good point of debate and its through interactions like this that you see not only your side but from other angles too which may or may not change your overall opinion.

 

[Midwest]

I think you are wrong Selfmade. The Electricity Safety, Quality & Continuity Regulations 2002 set out how electricity is distributed in the UK and sets out how Duty Holders (DNO) and to a point - Consumers - must comply with the regulations. The Regulations are a Statuary Instrument and therefore have the force of law.
Section 24 (2) of the regulations, require the Duty Holder to have 'cut-out fuses to be locked or sealed in position to prevent them being removed or the supply being interfered with by unauthorised persons'.

Section 25 'is targeted at persons physically connecting a supply on site'' and too much for me to type here, but have a look yourself. I'm assured it relates to electricians connecting equipment to the DNO's supply.

Section 35 permits the Secretary of State to bring prosecutions against the Duty Holders and 'other persons', for non compliance with the regulations. It would be down to a Court to interpret the regulations and non compliances.

I'm not sure if an 'electrician', has been prosecuted under his regulation, for cutting seals or removing a cut out fuse, but they will for sure if somebody is injured or killed.

My post at #30, gives an example where you can do so. Again I say, contact your local DNO, to see how you can comply.

 

[Midwest]

Apologies, I received email notification of Selfmade's post, and hadn't realised others had already replied.