Wagos on Final Ring Circuits

[John-SJW]

Overload protection can be omitted for a fixed load, as it's not possible for 20 amps to flow in this scenario.

SO I believe. But I have known a few table lamp fires in my time, and we have fuses in the plugs as well. OK they probably had a 13A fuse, not a 1A. But we have the ability to give greater protection, they do not in the basic designs.

 

[LastManOnline]

A 0.75mm flex is not protected on a 16A radial. The maximum rating for a 0.75mm cable is 6 amp. It needs 6 amp or lower protection, not 16 or 20 amp. Run 20 amps through a 0.75mm flex then see what happens to it.

Who said a 0.75mm flex IS protected by a 16a radial???. I think you may have misread my comment.
Furthermore as stated by a previous poster, an appliance is an "end of line" accessory which does not require overload protection, it simply requires short circuit protection.
I believe the Europeans had that figured out some time ago.

 

[LastManOnline]

But I have known a few table lamp fires in my time,

I have never heard of a table lamp fire. Can I ask where these occurred and under what circumstances?

 

[telectrix]

I have never heard of a table lamp fire. Can I ask where these occurred and under what circumstances?

candle lamps?

any roar 7 pages on a thread about wagos. that's more pages than in the Wago sales brochure.

 

[LastManOnline]

candle lamps?

any roar 7 pages on a thread about wagos. that's more pages than in the Wago sales brochure

To be fair to OP, I thought he made an intelligent argument regarding use of WAGO connector in a ring circuit, though under scrutiny it ran out of steam. It did however hold my attention. I found the reasoning on "table lamp fires" much less persuasive.

 

[pirate]

I will take pics of my fused lamp sockets next time i am in Spain. FYI, some of the light switches, such as those that operate wall-mounted bedside lamps and others, also have fuses in them.

 

[LastManOnline]

The maximum rating for a 0.75mm cable is 6 amp. It needs 6 amp or lower protection.

In that case you can start a lucrative business in the UK changing ceiling rose, s

 

[John-SJW]

In that case you can start a lucrative business in the UK changing ceiling rose, s

LIghting circuits are on 20A mcbs? New on me.

 

[John-SJW]

I will take pics of my fused lamp sockets next time i am in Spain. FYI, some of the light switches, such as those that operate wall-mounted bedside lamps and others, also have fuses in them.

Sounds good. Looks like the Spanish have come a long way. When I was a kid I recall seeing the bell wire i the ceilings, they used for lighting circuits as they built those shoddy hotels.

 

[John-SJW]

I have never heard of a table lamp fire. Can I ask where these occurred and under what circumstances?

I recall as kid we smelled burning in a bedroom. My sister's table lamp was melting - around the switch. My Dad pulled the plug out, taking the smelly lamp outside. I recall it had a 13A fuse in the plug, as it was brown coloured, not a 1A. An electrician neighbour told us put a 1A fuse in table lights. He also went around the house telling us what fuse value to put in the plugs as well. We were lucky we got there soon enough. A 1A would have saved it. That was just in our house.

You seem to think lamps will not develop faults.

 

[John-SJW]

I'm liking this idea. May cut down on future ring continuity problems

I actually suggested it to them. It saves them so much time. And a much professional job. One will take all the sockets, FCU, etc, of job home as he has a workbench in his garage. There could be 40-50 of these. He cuts the 2.5mm flex cable (L,N,E sheathed) into approx 6 inch lengths, strips them fixing the tails into the outlets, switches etc. This can take the best part of a day, depending how many.

For the 2nd fix they then just put clip the tails into the Wagos (or In-Sure) inside the backboxes,. The sockets easily push back being on flexible cable. They then screw up the sockets using a battery screwdriver finishing off with a hand screwdriver, taking about a minute or two for each socket.

When installing in flats they also use Wagos in the switch backboxes to link up the lighting radial. Again, using flex cable to the light switch, fixing into the light switch on a bench.

 

[LastManOnline]

I recall as kid we smelled burning in a bedroom. My sister's table lamp was melting - around the switch.

It was melting at the switch because of either a defective switch or because of a loose connection. Your neighbours well intentioned solution of sticking on a 1 amp fuse rather than a 13 amp fuse would make no difference. Fuses don't detect poor connections. They only detect overloading. Your neighbours suggestion is a good example of a "solution" being provided for a "problem" that did, nt exist

 

[MrMan1O1]

I actually suggested it to them. It saves them so much time. And a much professional job. One will take all the sockets, FCU, etc, of job home as he has a workbench in his garage. There could be 40-50 of these. He cuts the 2.5mm flex cable (L,N,E sheathed) into approx 6 inch lengths, strips them fixing the tails into the outlets, switches etc. This can take the best part of a day, depending how many.

For the 2nd fix they then just put clip the tails into the Wagos (or In-Sure) inside the backboxes,. The sockets easily push back being on flexible cable. They then screw up the sockets using a battery screwdriver finishing off with a hand screwdriver, taking about a minute or two for each socket.

When installing in flats they also use Wagos in the switch backboxes to link up the lighting radial. Again, using flex cable to the light switch, fixing into the light switch on a bench.

Your suggestion. That figures. Why on earth would anyone design a RFC with every socket actually a spur? I don't get it. I'm trying not to judge and to remain curious but surely this can't be right? Does the person signing off the design actually know that his guys are doing this? What's their motivation for doing it? I don't believe that the assertion that wagos make better connections is the driving force. As you've written in bold the true reason is speed, so therefore the only motivation appears to be greed .... and maybe it makes them feel "clever". In the location of a backbox the cables are pretty well restrained so the screwed terminals won't see any vibrations, and certainly not enough to loosen a screwed terminal that was tight in the first place. The main opportunity for wires to become loose in a socket screwed terminal is when they are manipulated as the socket is pushed onto the backbox. Personally I always pull the socket back out just enough to get to the terminals and retighten.... very occasionally there's one that will nip up slightly.
Pre-wired sockets and battery screwdrivers! Really!? Sounds like these guys would better employed on a factory production line.

 

[LastManOnline]

I will take pics of my fused lamp sockets next time i am in Spain. FYI, some of the light switches, such as those that operate wall-mounted bedside lamps and others, also have fuses in them.

I have no doubt that the fuses in your case are there for a legitimate reason. What I wanted to highlight was that the lack of fuses in European plugtops is not due to poor electrical design as the OP suggests. Their 16 amp circuit fuses adequately protect their appliance leads because the appliance leads, are sized accordingly. Its worth bearing in mind that the CE mark is a European standard which stipulates that any appliance manufacturer must ensure that their appliances are suitable for the fixed wiring system they are being used in.
We in the UK and Ireland would have to increase appliance lead sizes significantly because of the ring circuit with its 32 amp circuit protection. However the fused plugtop allows us to have similar sized leads as the europeans.

 

[LastManOnline]

. The maximum rating for a 0.75mm cable is 6 amp. It needs 6 amp or lower protection, not 16 or 20 amp. Run 20 amps through a 0.75mm flex then see what happens to it.

You are confused about the current a cable can safely carry continuously and the short circuit current the cable can safely handle.
For instance the 0.75mm rated at 6 amp would in fact have adequate short circuit protection via a 13 amp fused plug top.

 

[brianmoooore]

Why on earth would anyone design a RFC with every socket actually a spur? I

The original specification for a RFC was a to serve a maximum area of 100 sq. yrds., and that the number of spurs could not exceed the number of sockets on the ring.
This often lead to a complete ring being installed on the first floor, with a spur from every socket to a socket on the ground floor.

 

[MrMan1O1]

The original specification for a RFC was a to serve a maximum area of 100 sq. yrds., and that the number of spurs could not exceed the number of sockets on the ring.
This often lead to a complete ring being installed on the first floor, with a spur from every socket to a socket on the ground floor.

Yes, understood, although this again would leave no flexibility for future changes, ie would need to expand the ring in order to add extra sockets. I was referring to the practice of making a ring using wagos in the backboxes and wiring in each socket on 2.5 flex so each one would be a spur off the ring. Seems to me it would be just adding loads of extra connections in the backbox that really don't need to be there...there are perfectly good terminals on the socket...and no opportunity to add extra sockets as spurs at some point in the future.

 

[boris1]

Yes, understood, although this again would leave no flexibility for future changes, ie would need to expand the ring in order to add extra sockets. I was referring to the practice of making a ring using wagos in the backboxes and wiring in each socket on 2.5 flex so each one would be a spur off the ring. Seems to me it would be just adding loads of extra connections in the backbox that really don't need to be there...there are perfectly good terminals on the socket...and no opportunity to add extra sockets as spurs at some point in the future.

I may not fully understand but if you can pull the original FRC wires back into the [back]box then you can expand the FRC in the future. Saves work now at the expense of a more difficult possible future renovation.

 

[AJshep]

Just caught up with this thread!

Wagos are great, but I don't like the idea of adding an additional conections on a RFC just so someone can come along later, with pre wired sockets and spur them off of the ring. Is this really what people do so they can and save a few seconds? if this is what people have to result too to make money then there is an issue somewhere, people that work like this just add to it!

Wagos are not busbars, they don't have busbars inside, they have a cage clamp looking at their data they are tested to EC 60947, 60998 and more specifically IEC 60999-1:1999.

 

[John-SJW]

The original specification for a RFC was a to serve a maximum area of 100 sq. yrds., and that the number of spurs could not exceed the number of sockets on the ring.
This often lead to a complete ring being installed on the first floor, with a spur from every socket to a socket on the ground floor.

It does not often lead to that. That is an exception.