Ring main with no earth ring!?!

[michaelw6]

Today i did a board change was one of them all in one eicr fix on site board changes "you know the ones that always go wrong".
Well the issue was the house ring.
i had 0.44 live 0.44 neutral and no earth ring.
I have put this circuit on a B32 61009 RCBO.
now how do i stand with the earth as its not to regs with regards sizing so theoretically if a fault develops it would not carry the load fast enough to trip.
I have had every point off in the house trying to find and tightened all up but no fault so it must be a joint under the floor. laminate down so floor coming up is a no go.
i thought about putting on a 20a but there are 20 sockets covering the whole house inc kitchen. so it may over load.
i thought about splitting ring but as i cannot find the fault how can i split ill have more sockets with no earth then...
So ive gone around and zs tested all sockets i have an earth max zs was 0.73ohms and the rcbo is max zs of 1.16ohms i believe so its well within tripping times.
Any more Ideas you recon it will be ok to leave just make a note of it on cert???

 

[loz]

The ring must be split in between two sockets. My first job would be to find out between which 2 points it's split. (Disconnect all ring conductors at do. Link line and earth of one cable and test between these At the sockets, then once you've identified the sockets with continuity, repeat the process from the other end, I like to do a plan and record readings on it to try identify how the ring is wired) Then if possible rewire that section or split into two radials if this is feasible

 

[Octopus]

What did your schemes tech support team suggest?

TBH matey this should be relatively easy to locate doing an R1 + R2 on each leg of the circuit from the CU

 

[westward10]

Your max Zs is pretty irrelevant it is an rcbo, I know some may consider it poor practice to rely on the rcd to provide fault protection on TN systems, never the less a change from 32A to 20A is irrelevant.

 

[Pete999]

Today i did a board change was one of them all in one eicr fix on site board changes "you know the ones that always go wrong".
Well the issue was the house ring.
i had 0.44 live 0.44 neutral and no earth ring.
I have put this circuit on a B32 61009 RCBO.
now how do i stand with the earth as its not to regs with regards sizing so theoretically if a fault develops it would not carry the load fast enough to trip.
I have had every point off in the house trying to find and tightened all up but no fault so it must be a joint under the floor. laminate down so floor coming up is a no go.
i thought about putting on a 20a but there are 20 sockets covering the whole house inc kitchen. so it may over load.
i thought about splitting ring but as i cannot find the fault how can i split ill have more sockets with no earth then...
So ive gone around and zs tested all sockets i have an earth max zs was 0.73ohms and the rcbo is max zs of 1.16ohms i believe so its well within tripping times.
Any more Ideas you recon it will be ok to leave just make a note of it on cert???

It's a Ring Final Circuit RFC NOT a blasted Ring Main

 

[telectrix]

easiest way is get a wander lead and check R2 readings. this will soon ID where the fault is located, and the values will help to plot the routes.

 

[Midwest]

Without r2 continuity, I can't see how you can obtain such a low Zs reading, obviously you have a parallel earth path via an appliance etc. If such an appliance is removed in the future the Zs figure will rise.

As the others said, time to locate the fault. Think Tel has suggested before to another OP, to split the RFC into two radials, if the break is somewhere you can't access.

Note to oneself, never do a CU change just before Xmas

 

[Sparkie30]

He must of done that in porpuse Pete.

 

[Octopus]

scary stuff from an "Arms" member... especially if you read the duplicate of this on another forum....

 

[westward10]

scary stuff from an "Arms" member... especially if you read the duplicate of this on another forum....

Certainly limited knowledge of the principles of circuit protection.

 

[sparksburnout]

Well I will make a note not to do any of those "All in one EICR fix on site board jobbies", they sound like hard work to me, specially as they are the ones that always go wrong. I had made a new years resolution not to be critical about anything anymore but je-sus-^^^ing-wept give me strength I just broke it early. Are you for real??? It says in your profile that your occupation is "electrical". What exactly is that???? Beam me up Scotty, take me now son.........

 

[Rpa07]

I had made a new years resolution not to be critical about anything anymore...

It's ok sparksburntout, it's only December 21st - the new you hasn't come into effect yet - LET RIP!

 

[sparksburnout]

It's ok sparksburntout, it's only December 21st - the new you hasn't come into effect yet - LET RIP!

Well, this guy is, apparently, "the most trusted and best loved electrician in Swindon". Any other sparks in Swindon care to comment?? Are there any others?
Oh roll on 2017...

 

[rolyberkin]

Well I will make a note not to do any of those "All in one EICR fix on site board jobbies", they sound like hard work to me, specially as they are the ones that always go wrong. I had made a new years resolution not to be critical about anything anymore but je-sus-^^^ing-wept give me strength I just broke it early. Are you for real??? It says in your profile that your occupation is "electrical". What exactly is that???? Beam me up Scotty, take me now son.........

I go through this love/hate relationship with your posts, gonna start calling you marmite!

 

[davesparks]

Find the fault and fix it/take suitable remedial action.
You can't just make a note on a bit of paper and call it fixed!
The regulations specify that the cpc of a ring circuit must also be a ring.

 

[westward10]

G

Find the fault and fix it/take suitable remedial action.
You can't just make a note on a bit of paper and call it fixed!
The regulations specify that the cpc of a ring circuit must also be a ring.

Go on Pete, tell him, go on I dare you, it is a ring final circuit

 

[Pete999]

G

Go on Pete, tell him, go on I dare you, it is a ring final circuit

No I won't so stop taking the pess lol seriously though, doesn't it get your goat, when people can't even get the description of what they are talking about right?

 

[westward10]

No I won't so stop taking the pess lol seriously though, doesn't it get your goat, when people can't even get the description of what they are talking about right?

That and bad grammar Pete.

 

[Pete999]

I

That and bad grammar Pete.

I said stop FFS what is bad grammar? Sorry mate I really MUST read the post properly, ignore my last please put it down to the lovely bottle of wine I have just finished

 

[sparksburnout]

I

I said stop FFS what is bad grammar? Sorry mate I really MUST read the post properly, ignore my last please put it down to the lovely bottle of wine I have just finished

Nice one Pete, are you just getting in a bit of training ready for the festive session?

 

[Pete999]

Nice one Pete, are you just getting in a bit of training ready for the festive session?

Fully trained ready to open my present which I bought for the wife to give to me, Laphroig, think that's how it's spelt

 

[sparksburnout]

Fully trained ready to open my present which I bought for the wife to give to me, Laphroig, think that's how it's spelt

Ah yes from Islay, I've always though it tastes a bit like TCP, possibly a good excuse if your feeling a bit peaky. Iv'e just got myself a bottle of Penderyn, from Wales would you believe! It's lovely......

 

[Pete999]

Ah yes from Islay, I've always though it tastes a bit like TCP, possibly a good excuse if your feeling a bit peaky. Iv'e just got myself a bottle of Penderyn, from Wales would you believe! It's lovely......

What Welsh Scotch? uggghhh

 

[michaelw6]

well thanks for the productive comments. as i said i tested and there is an earth at all sockets when split i dont understand why i get no ring on the earth. i was thinking the only thing i can do considering ive stripped the entire system is to split the circuit onto two 20a rcbos. looks like thats what ill have to try and do!
there was no need for the slanging match! next time i want some friendly advice ill know to go else where!

 

[Andy78]

What Welsh Scotch? uggghhh

I've had a couple of bottles in the past. Absolutely lovely stuff, and I'm more of an Islay man usually. Try it if you see it in a bar.

If you can't get your head around Welsh single malt you might not get round to the Japanese ones. You'll be missing out though.

 

[Andy78]

well thanks for the productive comments. as i said i tested and there is an earth at all sockets when split i dont understand why i get no ring on the earth. i was thinking the only thing i can do considering ive stripped the entire system is to split the circuit onto two 20a rcbos. looks like thats what ill have to try and do!
there was no need for the slanging match! next time i want some friendly advice ill know to go else where!

You have had some productive and helpful comments to guide you to fixing this very simple fault. What slanging match ?
Split the circuit ? Why not just fix it ?

 

[sparksburnout]

You have had some productive and helpful comments to guide you to fixing this very simple fault. What slanging match ?
Split the circuit ? Why not just fix it ?

Quite right. Now, the Welsh scotch (!!) is excellent, but I have to take issue with the Jap stuff. I went there years ago on a business trip, and they took the greatest delight in bringing this bottle out at the end of a meal. Man it was rough as hell. Maybe its improved now, bit like the first Hondas.....

 

[sparksburnout]

What Welsh Scotch? uggghhh

Try some Pete, Tesco got it on offer at the moment, its magic stuff.

 

[Andy78]

Quite right. Now, the Welsh scotch (!!) is excellent, but I have to take issue with the Jap stuff. I went there years ago on a business trip, and they took the greatest delight in bringing this bottle out at the end of a meal. Man it was rough as hell. Maybe its improved now, bit like the first Hondas.....

Well, I was going to recommend Yamazaki 12YO as a good accessible starting point. I have had a couple of bottles in the past and was a very good bottle in the £25-30 mark.
I've just done a search online and it retails at about £90 now though. Must have found a cult following or have limited production now.

 

[michaelw6]

Split the circuit ? Why not just fix it ?

as said in my first post its not fixable im afraid i cannot find it.
there are so many radials off the ring there must be quite a few JBs under the floor which is not accessable as its laminate flooring. if this was an easy fix i would not of asked for help!

 

[Andy78]

as said in my first post its not fixable im afraid i cannot find it.
there are so many radials off the ring there must be quite a few JBs under the floor which is not accessable as its laminate flooring. if this was an easy fix i would not of asked for help!

Well if it's a mish mash of JBs like you suspect then splitting into 2 radials may be a bigger nightmare than actually fixing the fault. To do either option though you need to find the fault.
Are you saying you have totally split the ring down at every point, mapped out the cable runs through continuity testing, and you still have an open cpc when connected into a ring and no idea which portion of cable has the broken cpc ?

 

[Octopus]

as said in my first post its not fixable im afraid i cannot find it.
there are so many radials off the ring there must be quite a few JBs under the floor which is not accessable as its laminate flooring. if this was an easy fix i would not of asked for help!

Surely you know between which 2 points there isn't continuity of R2?

 

[7029 dave]

As above you must have R2 on one half.?I take your point with the jb's under the floor.If the leg has been cut in half that is a big mistake. When I broke in under any floor used to splice the cable, so continuity was not broken.

 

[michaelw6]

Well if it's a mish mash of JBs like you suspect then splitting into 2 radials may be a bigger nightmare than actually fixing the fault. To do either option though you need to find the fault.
Are you saying you have totally split the ring down at every point, mapped out the cable runs through continuity testing, and you still have an open cpc when connected into a ring and no idea which portion of cable has the broken cpc ?

Pretty Much i may have lost my way a little but it seemed impossible and i was just chasing my tail. getting late needed power on. im letting them know im gonna have another go at the testing with a clear head.
i think my only option is two radial circuits.

 

[sparksburnout]

These distress changes can be buggers......