The idea of two spurs from adjacent points merging into one was first described by Pete999 in #26, reiterated as a specific argument by SJD in #44 and hammered home by Devonchris in #108.

Now try this one:

Suppose the junction box is actually a socket outlet in the RFC. You can run one unfused spur from this to feed one point., no doubt about that.

Now, instead of the socket outlet in the ring being in the physical position it is, you 'relocate' the faceplate to a different position using a piece of 2.5mm² cable, leaving the connections where they are. We already know that this type of cable is acceptable to feed one point. We already know that the loading on the RFC from the point of connection is acceptable. Electrically, nothing has changed. So, provided the junction box is adequate for the purpose, the OP's situation is electrically just as safe as a single spur to a socket outlet run from another socket outlet.

Making all new socket outlets part of a fused spur is obviously compliant, but may be materially less safe. The total load that can now be connected is limited to 13A, and if Pete's proposed 2 x 2kW heaters were connected, one to each of the new socket outlets, a prolonged low overload would occur before the fuse failed. During that time, the FCU would be operated beyond its continuous rating, whereas with the double unfused spur nothing would be overloaded in this way.

So IMHO the simple answer of making the addition a fused spur apparently improves compliance while making it less safe. Personally, I think the OP's solution is fine. I agree with SC that it is not in breach of any regs. Connecting a large number of spurs to one point would be unacceptable because too great a fraction of the circuit's total load would be likely to become concentrated at that point. But as I showed above, there is no such redistribution of load at all, when two unfused spurs each serving one point are taken from one junction that is not itself an outlet.
 
I remember a house once wired in roughly the same configuration,RFC up and down but as the leg enters the room it terminated to a JB and fed 3-4 sockets (all from the jb) then carried on to the next room and did the same thing room to room and back to the board...
Confused the me no end for a while, glad I didnt have to touch it cos it would’ve kept me awake :)
 
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So.. The iet are saying the same, rfc cut on one leg, junction box with both ends of leg connected to 2 length of 2.5mm on to 1 socket on each length. Non compliant.
 
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I remember a house once wired in roughly the same configuration,RFC up and down but as the leg enters the room it terminated to a JB and fed 3-4 sockets (all from the jb) then carried on to the next room and did the same thing room to room and back to the board...
Confused the me no end for a while, glad I didnt have to touch it cos it would’ve kept me awake :)
Ewwww
 
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What reg do they say it contravenes?
 
Didn't actually think to ask. Just asked them the question (twice to confirm) they gave me there answer. Give them a ring, I'm sick of phone calls today.
You know, without conceding to anyone, and the lack of any definitive proof, Regulation numbers etc, the only arguments on this subject we have, are divided between those who agree with what we have as decisive regulatory notifications, i,e, regulation 433.1.204 Appendix 15 Figure 15A, and those who don't agree.

Now I know what I believe to be a true representation of what is right, and I won't waver from that, so please don't bother to argue the point with me.

What has come about from this somewhat heated debate, is one or two members have either contacted their respective C.P.Schemes, the NICEIC in this instance, or the IET directly, both organisations have declared that the issue presented to them by members of the Forum, in their opinion is non compliant with BS7671.

It begins to make you wonder how many other inconclusive issues have been left for us Electrical operatives to debate, argue and form our own conclusions, without any definitive statements published by the IET.

Now I know there will be many people out there who will say it's always been this way.

The Regulations, the OSG, the various guidance Notes are not cheap, and those who try to abide by the rules conscientiously buy these publications religiously every time there are updates.

Now back to earlier both the NICEIC and IET have said the issue posed by the OP is non compliant, but seem to be reluctant to provide any proof of non compliance.
 
So the iet say it's 'Non compliant'

I'm right...... IN YOUR FACE...... :):)
 
I see no substance in someone at the help desk saying it doesn't comply, but without any reasoning or regulation to back it up. You could phone on a different day and some might well say they think it does comply. They are paid to provide good and complete technical advice, not just random one liners.
 
This thread has been quite an interesting read with some very healthy debates.

So I’m just curious, the IET write the regulations we all adhere to right? So are all the regulations they provide us with backed up with actual facts/testing.

So the regulation being discussed in the post, has it been tested by the IET to confirm that 2 spurs from the same socket ARE in fact dangerous or are they based on speculation as to ‘what’ might happen?
 
This thread has been quite an interesting read with some very healthy debates.

So I’m just curious, the IET write the regulations we all adhere to right? So are all the regulations they provide us with backed up with actual facts/testing.

So the regulation being discussed in the post, has it been tested by the IET to confirm that 2 spurs from the same socket ARE in fact dangerous or are they based on speculation as to ‘what’ might happen?
Proberably the latter tbh who knows.
 
Dear oh Dear, the OP has spurred two sockets off one point on the ring, whether it is a socket or a Junction box it is one point, spurring two points from one point on the ring is against the regs, No scheme will accept it because it is not permitted, you can all argue all day long and I won't reply to any replies to this because I know I am right :D
 
My App15 shows it as being fine:tonguewink:
20181022_175305.jpg
 
What has come about from this somewhat heated debate, is one or two members have either contacted their respective C.P.Schemes, the NICEIC in this instance, or the IET directly, both organisations have declared that the issue presented to them by members of the Forum, in their opinion is non compliant with BS7671.

It begins to make you wonder how many other inconclusive issues have been left for us Electrical operatives to debate, argue and form our own conclusions, without any definitive statements published by the IET.

Now I know there will be many people out there who will say it's always been this way.

The Regulations, the OSG, the various guidance Notes are not cheap, and those who try to abide by the rules conscientiously buy these publications religiously every time there are updates.

Now back to earlier both the NICEIC and IET have said the issue posed by the OP is non compliant, but seem to be reluctant to provide any proof of non compliance.

On the back of this, I contacted NAPIT (my scheme) and put it to them that I had come across this situation during an EICR and had been advised by a more learned friend that it was a non-compliance, but that I was struggling to find a regulation it contravened.

The answer I received went like this "not good practice, but you won't find a regulation it contravenes".

So yes I fundamentally agree with you Pete, a classic case of ambiguity in the regulations leaving us open to the possibility of ending up in hot water (if something goes wrong for example).

It would be very simple to clarify with an additional clause in 433.1.204 that states each junction box/accessory shall be the origin of a single spur.

I think we all agree it's not good practice, but the ambiguity leaves it open.
 
Oi! You deleted my comment.. :(
I deleted your comment and the associated ones because even though there was no malice to it it was inappropriate for a public forum.
 
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First, I didn’t pay a decorator to do anything, second, you should have read more than 1st 3 pages as you would have seen I did call out an electrician.

I apologise for my language this morning and my post was correctly edited by a mod. My outburst was probably a little OTT and if I came across as rude it wasn’t my intention, just this sort of stuff does boil the p155 of electricians.

Maybe I should of read more, but I still think what you tried to undertake was a little more than DIY. On the positive side, I do applaud you for coming and seeking help - many don’t.
 
I asked my scheme, the fella in B&Q he said it was fine and even showed me the parts I required.
 
I've given you a disagree because I was taught never to have more than 3 cables at any connection on a ring or radial

If using a screw junction box, I'd tend to agree due to limited terminal capacity, but with modern jointing methods like Wagos, it's not such a problem.

But regardless, fundamentally (as I've stated so many times I've lost count) I agree... it's not good practice :D
 
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The op could always mark it down as a departure when he signs to say he has designed the circuit.
Then even if appendix 15 is not just guidance, it would not be coded unsatisfactory on an eicr. Not that it would anyway if it didn't affect the safety of the installation, but it's down to the designer to decide.;)
 
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The op could always mark it down as a departure when he signs to say he has designed the circuit.
Then even if appendix 15 is not just guidance, it would not be coded unsatisfactory on an eicr. Not that it would anyway if it didn't affect the safety of the installation, but it's down to the designer to decide.;)

The OP isn’t a spark .......
 
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Seems as though if you have the wherewithal to alter drawings you can make yourself look clever. But why spoil a serious debate with cheap shots? not like you Westy.
Come Pete just trying to lighten the mood a bit, did you have to give it a second look:D
 
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OP. Basically fella, you’ve opened a can of worms.

After reading this, and seeing SparkyChick taking on the forum. My opinion is: What you’ve done is bad practice and I would never ever do it like this, and I’ve always been taught that this is wrong. But - hey, it doesn’t appear to be against regs when you scratch beneath the surface.

Talk about a grey area.
 
OK, there clearly isn't a definitive answer here and it's been debated to the point of extinction, we'll just have to fall into two camps and agree to disagree. Beer o'clock and apologies for perhaps unfair posts regarding DIYers.
 
The OP isn’t a spark .......
My comment was tongue in cheek! however it's true you don't need to be a spark to fill in a valid eic correctly! ;)
 

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2 spurs from a Junction Box....worried?
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