How would you describe the dangers, when they say it all works

[Optimus]

Hello everybody! I'm currently completing evening classes at my local college to get my level 2, recently I have been taking a look at the consumer's unit of friends, family (this sounds really sad as I'm typing it) just to gain some more experience of the various types, intake, earthing arrangements etc. Stuff that I don't see in college basically. Well today I saw this at my uncles, who recently had an extension done. That rcbo that is second from the left, is feeding an oven, a microwave, 2 sockets and about 20 recessed lights in the kitchen.

I need some help in explaining why this is dangerous to someone that replys "but it works perfectly"

 

[marconi]

The first thing for you to do is develop your powers of critical inspection by studying the first and second images very carefully.

 

[snowhead]

Just studying the 2 RCBO's in the 2nd image might be a start to validate the O.P's statement.

Is that copper I see on that BLUE cable?

 

[buzzlightyear]

looking at the other rcbos they need attention has well .
but on the front of the that consumer it should say isolate before opening this cover .does it not .

 

[Pete999]

Well for starters the CU is a right mess, is that blue conductor connected to the Live terminal? you say it's feeding a oven, microwave and some lights, that's bad circuit design, what size is the cable feeding this lot?

 

[buzzlightyear]

looks like some body's charged the shower cable or installed it
no rcbo on that .

 

[Optimus]

Right now, the only cover that it has is the door of the cupboard that it is in, I'm assured that the cover is around somewhere and will be fitted as soon as I did check the oven isolator plate, after switching off main switch, and the wires were in the correct terminals there. I'm not clued up enough to to explain the dangers of the wires being in the incorrect terminals of the rcbo

 

[marconi]

One worrying thought is 'what else has been wrongly connected'?

There are so many learning points which are going to come out of this for you. How is most functional switching done? How do most/all(?) new socket outlets switch L and N - what order do the contacts make/break and why? What is the potential of the incoming N with respect to terra firma? What happens if the fuse blows in a plug connected to a socket with L and N reversed?

 

[davesparks]

Presumably that circuit is a submain?

 

[buzzlightyear]

any body spotted the neutral is in the live in that rcbo on the left side.

 

[DPG]

Yes Buzz. See above

 

[frontier219]

Someone didn't take their colour blindness test then...

 

[plugsandsparks]

I always explain that getting things to work is very easy , getting stuff to fail elegantly and pose no danger to people or the building is the hard bit. Most sites use ADS to make an installation safe under fault conditions but the installation has to be designed, installed and tested to make sure it does in fact fail nicely, otherwise its really really bad... lol

 

[marconi]

Optimus these for example:

Re Davesparks #9 - Presumably that circuit is a submain?

Re Plugsandspeaks #13 - Most sites use ADS to make an installation safe under fault conditions

 

[MFS Electrical]

Don’t forget the mixing of manufacturers breakers voids the warranty, whoever fitted them becomes responsible for designing the consumer unit and it can no longer be rated at 16kA as a whole unit because it hasn’t been tested to comply. Naughty Naughty! Another pleb purporting to be an Electrician me thinks or just a cowboy.

 

[DPG]

The second of the two 32A RCBOS on the right bank shows possible early signs of getting hot. Check the connections to be on the safe side. After the main switch is off obviously.

 

[Octopus]

I'm guessing there are no certificates ....

 

[buzzlightyear]

Don’t forget the mixing of manufacturers breakers voids the warranty

maybe 20 year ago .

 

[buzzlightyear]

I have repeated me self

 

[telectrix]

well, for a starter. those RCBOs are the wrong make.

OOPS. composed tis post a while ago then had urgent job on @er indoors motor, so it's now irrelevant.please ignore.

 

[Deleted member 9648]

To the OP, the cable almost certainly feeds a sub-distribution board for the kitchen. If that's the case then there is no reason why it should not supply the items listed, if not it is clearly non compliant. The matter of incorrect polarity on the RCBO 2nd left is a very serious defect which should be rectified without delay. It is astonishing that the installer did not notice two adjacent identical devices are connected differently.

 

[Lucien Nunes]

I always say that anyone can make a simple circuit work under normal conditions - the current simply needs to get from A to B and back again. Two bits of wire and it will work. But when something minor goes wrong, such as a faulty appliance or a damaged cable, the protective measures that prevent things escalating into a fire or fatal electric shock need to be ready to act. These are much more complex than two bits of wire, so more expertise and correct workmanship are needed to ensure they are correctly designed and installed.

...explain the dangers of the wires being in the incorrect terminals of the rcbo

For the non-technical I find it sufficient to explain that reversed polarity bypasses the fuses on that circuit, and also leaves things live even when they seem to be off. Most people know that fuses (or MCBs) are essential for safety, so it should ring true when you tell them that without the fuses in operation even a minor fault could start a fire.

One worrying thought is 'what else has been wrongly connected'?

With any luck, the far end of that reversed cable!

 

[MFS Electrical]

maybe 20 year ago .

It’s strongly insinuated in the BBB as well as on the manufacturers instructions of both the RCBOs and the CU.
The CU will be well out of warranty but chances are the RCBOs aren’t.....

 

[buzzlightyear]

maybe 20 year ago .

why are you disagreeing with that MFS !

 

[MFS Electrical]

well, for a starter. those RCBOs are the wrong make.

OOPS. composed tis post a while ago then had urgent job on @er indoors motor, so it's now irrelevant.please ignore.

Were you lovingly washing and polishing it....

 

[MFS Electrical]

why are you disagreeing with that MFS !

I realised disagree was probably a bit harsh have a look at the post above yours though.
Not forgetting that the CU won’t comply with the standard for CUs anymore (BS EN 61439-3) Or more likely (BS EN 60439 as it’s older)

 

[buzzlightyear]

we on this forum have been round this merry go-round so many times that I can remember .about installing other manufacture's mcb and other items has long that they comply to bs 7671 max then in my book that's ok .whether white, black, or grey .

 

[MFS Electrical]

we on this forum have been round this merry go-round so many times that I can remember .about installing other manufacture's mcb and other items has long that they comply to bs 7671 max then in my book that's ok .whether white, black, or grey .

I’ll look for the reg number in the BBB

we on this forum have been round this merry go-round so many times that I can remember .about installing other manufacture's mcb and other items has long that they comply to bs 7671 max then in my book that's ok .whether white, black, or grey .

hope you’ll be listing this as a departure on your EICs after dec31st then. You should have a look at 536.4.203 in the BBB.....

 

[Pete999]

I’ll look for the reg number in the BBB

hope you’ll be listing this as a departure on your EICs after dec31st then. You should have a look at 536.4.203 in the BBB.....

Think It's reg 510 something 510.3 I think

 

[The Ghost]

@Optimus what do you think is dangerous about the pictures you have shown?

 

[Toneyz]

Considering genuine Memshield 2 MCB's & RCBO's are available that are identical in size all but 10kA I find there no excuse why a type tested protective device could not be used.

 

[Optimus]

Presumably that circuit is a submain?

This is the only cu in the home

The second of the two 32A RCBOS on the right bank shows possible early signs of getting hot. Check the connections to be on the safe side. After the main switch is off obviously.

It definitely does, I will check this out. I return this weekend

I'm guessing there are no certificates ....

Absolutely none. It was the builders "electrician"

 

[Optimus]

@Optimus what do you think is dangerous about the pictures you have shown?

Vertigern, when I opened the cupboard and saw the cu without a cover, I knew this was a bodge job (even with my limited experience). Then I spotted the mix of breakers, the bare copper, the rat's nest and that rcbo with the wrong coloured cables going out.
I mentioned all of this to my uncle but was unable to articulate it well (or well enough that he would do something)

 

[Optimus]

Double post- ooops

 

[MFS Electrical]

Vertigern, when I opened the cupboard and saw the cu without a cover, I knew this was a bodge job (even with my limited experience). Then I spotted the mix of breakers, the bare copper, the rat's nest and that rcbo with the wrong coloured cables going out.
I mentioned all of this to my uncle but was unable to articulate it well (or well enough that he would do something)

You’ll probably be hard pressed in getting him to do something not even a cover on it me thinks if your uncle ever decides to sell he’s in for a shock replacing that lot lord knows what nasties are hidden away if this is in full view
You could always get a lock off kit and stick the main switch off lock it tag it and walk away that would make him take notice (I advise against ever doing this especially in families’ houses as they might just brain you )

 

[The Ghost]

One thing is for sure as already opined, there is no certificate or if there is it is a fraudulent one. But when the time comes to sell the house there is going to be a lot of problems when your uncle tells the buyer the box was changed as they will look for a certificate. It will cost him a lot of head aches and money to get that right at such a stage. Also he has invalidated his home insurance with a job like that. If there is a fire or someone is electrocuted there is no insurance to cover any of it. The householder is responsible for ensuring the people doing work in their house are competent tradesmen. In this case your uncle has failed miserably quite clearly. For a few dollars less eh? Hope he lives on his own and no one else is now made unsafe due to his pennypinching, I guess, or maybe he really can't tell a good job from a bad job and that one is a bad job poor and dangerous workmanship.

 

[Shoei]

To get back on topic , the question was how to explain it's dangerous when they say it all works? How's your acting? Watch this guy for some pointers...

 

[Toneyz]

And the Oscar goes to.............

 

[telectrix]

to get back to the OP and the pic. just ask him what flowers and which Pink Floyd track he wants at his funeral, or get it fixed .

 

[Phillip]

that

Yep I seen it, had to look twice.

 

[Phillip]

Yep I seen the netrual wire in the wrong place.

 

[Optimus]

First of all, thank you all for your input and sound advice.
Now an update.
I passed on the dangers of reverse polarity and the overall shoddy work, to my unc, who had a go at the builder for leaving the electrics unsafe. The builder actually agreed and said he won't be paying the 'electrician' and has deducted the costs of electrical work from the agreed cost of the extension, he also found the cover for the cu in his van pretty quickly

My uncle also agreed to get a proper spark in, to check and rectify the job. So proper result here. Common sense prevail's, eventually!

- If anyone can recommend a good electrician around the Southampton/Eastleigh, please let me know and I can forward the details

 

[Rpa07]

Serious arc eye from that one - not nearly enough to spend a minute motionless then writhing around on the floor - but enough to make a general comment!

To get back on topic , the question was how to explain it's dangerous when they say it all works? How's your acting? Watch this guy for some pointers...

And the Oscar goes to.............