Fire alarm panel. Don’t recognise fault code

[littlespark]

The big stately home I’ve been working in has an EMS 5096 alarm system with over 100 detectors and 3 (that I know of) panels.
All detectors are battery powered and radio back to its closest panel. All panels are also radio linked together.

They get the odd fault code which is usually a flat battery. They can change the battery’s and reset the system themselves… but the other day they got a message that won’t reset.
The screen says fault and something like “Radio Net 03”

From what I’m guessing, it’s the radio link to the 3rd panel….. but I can’t find anything online on how to either reset it or investigate what the problem is.


Image attached with what the panel looks like.

 

[buzzlightyear]

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://emsgroup.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/System-5000-Engineers-Operating-Guide-Iss4.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiV7qjXo72EAxVk_rsIHQZBAOAQFnoECBQQAQ&usg=AOvVaw3F5EUN7fv7k2DPkHrPZnNw

 

[littlespark]

Already downloaded that page, buzz. Doesn’t explain how to fix the problem.

I could, following the instructions, disconnect the panel from the system, then try to re-enable…. Wait and see.

The manager had contacted their alarm company that supposedly look after the system, but they said all they would do would be take a couple of days to test every sensor, with no guarantee they would find the problem.
He thinks they’ll end up just trying to sell him a new system.

 

[Mikegh]

100 detectors and 3 panels all connected wirelessly

What could go wrong

 

[Avo Mk8]

He thinks they’ll end up just trying to sell him a new system.

I think he's right - an upgrade has to happen sooner or later!

The EMS 5000 Wireless Fire Alarm System is Obsolete

Do you have an EMS 5000 fire alarm system? The wireless/radio alarm system was made obsolete in 2013 - here are the facts.

w-fp.co.uk

Unfortunately doesn't help you right now

 

[littlespark]

Been back there today, and uncovered something. On any other panel, the fault just says “panel fault, net 03” but when I go to the actual panel number 3, the fault reads “fault RI”….. which according to the book is radio interference.
This system has been working for years without issue, fighting through thick brick walls over several hundred feet, and there’s been nothing introduced that could cause interference that I know of.

One question is whether it’s the radio link between the panels, or the system that communicates with each detector linked to that particular panel.

My next step is to disable every detector linked to that panel, until the fault clears or doesn’t.
I can speed that up by disabling zones of 4 or 5 detectors at a time.

Another question should be what can cause the interference? There’s been quite a few lamps replaced with LED recently… ??

 

[littlespark]

Update:

After a few days of contacting EMS tech services, removing and re-enabling sensors, i got an email from them this morning saying there shouldn't be any reason that its not resetting.... perhaps you need to disconnect power, remove batterys to give it a full restart.... or alternatively press the 'warmstart' button inside the front cover...

The what now?

Had a look through all the documentation i could find, and indeed there is mention of this button.... but not where it is... just "press it if there's this problem"

Had a good look inside... and on the electronics board on the back of the panel... where the lcd screen is, there's a tiny button inside an access hole.... youde never see it if you werent looking for it....
Gave it a click, and the thing dies down... beeps loudly, then things start clicking back into place....

Total faults - none

Status - Normal



You beauty!



All i need to do now is source a couple of spare detector heads... they were giving faults too, and putting fresh battery's in didn't help.... Only stock available for redundant system is from Ebay... and sellers are looking for £180 plus......

 

[buzzlightyear]

Total faults - none

Status - Normal



You beauty!

You sleep tonight, f@@k hell that alarms going off, it's only my clock.

 

[littlespark]

Theyve got at least 3 faulty detectors now.... new battery doesnt help.
The original detectors for this system is stupid money on ebay... but can get the newer version detectors, second hand, from a supposedly working system for about 25 each.

eventually... they are going to need a new system, and i cant see it being a straight swap of each panel and detector....
They would like me to do it though.... when the time comes....

So to design, install and commission a new system, what trade bodies would i need to become a member of?
Theres BAFE that i read.... anyone else? I dont mind doing a bit of training, and paying for a certificate, if it covers me to install this, plus get the service contract??

 

[davesparks]

Manufacturers will often offer a design service, as long as you use their products.

 

[MReynish6]

If it’s going to be a new EMS system going in, then contact them and they will come and do a survey, design the new system and come and commission it once you’ve installed it.

 

[littlespark]

If it’s going to be a new EMS system going in, then contact them and they will come and do a survey, design the new system and come and commission it once you’ve installed it.

Ok… so I don’t have to be accredited to install the system… I just put it in to their spec?

What about ongoing servicing? Don’t need a badge for that? Would just be changing the battery’s on an annual basis or something.

I can check if the site insurance requires to be remotely monitored…. But I don’t think so as they have a live-in curator in one wing, and the lord of the manor and family in the other

 

[UNG]

So to design, install and commission a new system, what trade bodies would i need to become a member of?
Theres BAFE that i read.... anyone else? I dont mind doing a bit of training, and paying for a certificate, if it covers me to install this, plus get the service contract??

There is also the Fire Industry Association

 

[UNG]

All i need to do now is source a couple of spare detector heads... they were giving faults too, and putting fresh battery's in didn't help.... Only stock available for redundant system is from Ebay... and sellers are looking for £180 plus......

Looking at EMS panels they don't seem too badly priced but new detectors / bases look pricey

For me there would have to be a good reason for using wireless on what is a critical a safety system especially with so much RF around these days to cause interference

 

[littlespark]

For me there would have to be a good reason for using wireless on what is a critical a safety system especially with so much RF around these days to cause interference

Possibility of damage to many priceless artifacts,
Time taken to install miles and miles of fp200, and the final aesthetics of have a load of red wires or trunking running through period decorated rooms open to the public.

There is no Wi-Fi or other radio waves within that part of the house. Even mobile signal is extremely poor.


If something is designed to have rf communications, it will be built to avoid interference…. I think that’s the reason the current system is now redundant…. They had to change the frequency it used.

 

[baldelectrician]

Possibility of damage to many priceless artifacts,
Time taken to install miles and miles of fp200, and the final aesthetics of have a load of red wires or trunking running through period decorated rooms open to the public.

There is no Wi-Fi or other radio waves within that part of the house. Even mobile signal is extremely poor.


If something is designed to have rf communications, it will be built to avoid interference…. I think that’s the reason the current system is now redundant…. They had to change the frequency it used.

I have a Unifi U6 access point and it does a scan and looks for interference, the problem could b a new wifi system interfering.

With the Unifi you can program the access points to not use certain bits of the wifi spectrum

 

[UNG]

Possibility of damage to many priceless artifacts,

I can understand the concern with that

Time taken to install miles and miles of fp200, and the final aesthetics of have a load of red wires or trunking running through period decorated rooms open to the public.

I think given the type of building it is I think my choice would be MICC and definitely not FP and while it would need a lot of cable it would be a far more resiliant system that is not open to the whims of OFCOM and the government

There is no Wi-Fi or other radio waves within that part of the house. Even mobile signal is extremely poor.

RF interference is not just limited to Wi-Fi there are a lot of non licensed / lightly licenced frequencies out there which can all cause issues in other equipment

If something is designed to have rf communications, it will be built to avoid interference….

That theory doesn't always work, having worked with radio data comms for a number years there was one manufacturer that produced 2 radio products that couldn't be co-located due to using different frequency modes and one would wipe the other out

I think that’s the reason the current system is now redundant…. They had to change the frequency it used.

As the radio spectrum becomes more and more cluttered and OFCOM / the government see an opportunity to sell off specific portions of the radio spectrum for chunks of money it is always possible that equipment operating in that part of the spectrum will become redundant with in some cases very little notice, the most noticeable one in recent times is the terrestial TV frequency band with the upper frequencies (UHF channels 60 - 69) being creamed off for 5G
This is why I don't generally consider wireless equipment as a first / primary choice as once a frequency band is taken from the radio spectrum and sold off if the existing equipment / system` causes interference you may be forced to replace it possibly prematurely to avoid enforcement action

 

[ipf]

Possibility of damage to many priceless artifacts,
Time taken to install miles and miles of fp200, and the final aesthetics of have a load of red wires or trunking running through period decorated rooms open to the public.

Using MICC would be best.
It would add to the artefacts in a few years, too.

 

[MReynish6]

Ok… so I don’t have to be accredited to install the system… I just put it in to their spec?

What about ongoing servicing? Don’t need a badge for that? Would just be changing the battery’s on an annual basis or something.

I can check if the site insurance requires to be remotely monitored…. But I don’t think so as they have a live-in curator in one wing, and the lord of the manor and family in the other

No accreditation need to install it, you just follow their spec and design.

Technically you don’t need any qualifications to carry out a service other than being competent. But as it is with anything how do you define being competent? Personally some basic FIA courses would cover you on that front and teach you the basics and what you need to know. But not sure the cost would be worth it just for one service contract.

 

[littlespark]

No accreditation need to install it, you just follow their spec and design.

Technically you don’t need any qualifications to carry out a service other than being competent. But as it is with anything how do you define being competent? Personally some basic FIA courses would cover you on that front and teach you the basics and what you need to know. But not sure the cost would be worth it just for one service contract.

Thanks.

I do a lot more for the site than just change a few alarm batterys.

EICRs, PAT, numerous little jobs. Never away from the place.

 

[littlespark]

Update, a year later.

There’s been some management changes at the house, and I’ve just managed to get back doing regular work.
They’ve had their old fire alarm company fit a new system, as their insurance required a regulated company to install…

The new system requires little booster boxes dotted around the site. Apart from appearing out of place in period dressed rooms, I’ve found a few of them powered by the supplies to the emergency lighting…. Meaning the fire alarms are signalling a power fault whenever the lights are switched off for testing.

 

[littlespark]

Maybe someone can tell me, but I was always under the impression that red pyro or fp200 was for fire alarms, white for emergency lights… or was that just something I’ve invented in my head, and there’s no hard and fast rule about it…

I do know that leaving empty compression glands isn’t right.



Those white clips they’ve used on the new white fp… I don’t think that cable is designed to be hit with a hammer to get the clip in.

 

[Risteard]

Maybe someone can tell me, but I was always under the impression that red pyro or fp200 was for fire alarms, white for emergency lights… or was that just something I’ve invented in my head, and there’s no hard and fast rule about it…

I do know that leaving empty compression glands isn’t right.

View attachment 119961

Those white clips they’ve used on the new white fp… I don’t think that cable is designed to be hit with a hammer to get the clip in.

Fire alarm has to be a different colour to everything else, with a preference for red.

Emergency lighting is often in white FP200, but that's really only where it's a central battery system. If it's not then the cabling should have the same fire survivability as that of the general lighting circuits it's connected to.

 

[littlespark]

So old red onto newer white is just bad workmanship, but not against regs for fire alarms?

What about the previous post about tapping off the emergency lights for a supply to the radio relay box when its going to fault everytime the lights are tested?

 

[UNG]

Maybe someone can tell me, but I was always under the impression that red pyro or fp200 was for fire alarms, white for emergency lights… or was that just something I’ve invented in my head, and there’s no hard and fast rule about it…

I don't believe there is any hard and fast rule, I remember around 40 something years ago getting a run of Pyro manufactured with a non standard PVC sheath colour minimum order quantity was I think 3000m at the time, the job spec required the cable to blend in with the stone walls

Those white clips they’ve used on the new white fp… I don’t think that cable is designed to be hit with a hammer to get the clip in.

The clips used look like the Linian fire clips and I'm fairly sure there is no need to hammer them in

What about the previous post about tapping off the emergency lights for a supply to the radio relay box when its going to fault everytime the lights are tested?

On a BS5839-1 system a dedicated power supply is a requirement of the British Standard so it is wrong

A quick google gives

BS 5839-1 recommends that fire alarm systems have mains power supplies that are isolated by a circuit breaker. The circuit should be dedicated to the fire alarm system.



Power supply requirements

• Isolation
  Each power supply should have a local means to isolate the supply to the fire safety equipment.
  

• Labeling
  All isolators and protective devices should be labeled to indicate their purpose. For example, "FIRE ALARM DO NOT SWITCH OFF".
  
  
• Cables
  Fire alarm cables should be a single, common color that is not used for cables of general electrical services in the building. Red is preferred.
  
  
• Fire resistance
  In buildings over 30m in height, the fire resistance of the cable should be enhanced from the standard rating of 30 minutes to 120 minutes.
  

 

[westward10]

All fire alarm cables should be of a single, common colour that is not used for cables of general electrical services in the building, to enable these cables to be distinguished from those of other circuits.
Note The colour red is preferred.
There is no suggested colour for emergency lighting.

 

[westward10]

Oddly enough a few years ago we got a call from a company who had door mags fitted but for some odd reason they stopped working every month or so allowing unauthorised access to restricted areas from the warehouse. Didn't take long to establish they had tapped into the emergency lighting and when the monthly tests were carried out it isolated the door mags.

 

[littlespark]

This bit….

BS 5839-1 recommends that fire alarm systems have mains power supplies that are isolated by a circuit breaker. The circuit should be dedicated to the fire alarm system.


Does that mean there shouldn’t be any other form of isolation other than the circuit breaker?

You can see from the photoshop they used the original unswitched fused outlets… and these new relay boxes have a grid module with key switch and fuse.