4kw System Price

[19simon]

A customer has come back to me with feedback on a quote.

House is a converted stable, not a 12 panel estate house.

Large company quoted pennies under 7k + VAT for 16 panel installation with Chinese panels I've never hear of with Power One inverter. Layout is 2 rows of 8 columns landscape panels. AC and DC is easy, but property is old clay tiles with an oddly constructed old cut roof which definitely needs a site visit by a structural engineer. Included is £720 for scaffolding, but I think we could work off 2 towers.

Contract is subject to technical survey in T&C, so I'm not sure if the sales person has realised how much rail and hangers are needed for this type of install. £400 is allowed in quote which is OK for a 4x4, but Segen quoted £800 for an 8x2

Do these big firms send a guy in and start with extras or will they do a job like this for 7k?

Any feedback would be much appreciated

 

[Earthstore]

One thing to remember is large companies have the buying power that others do not, but they also have larger overheads, it depends on how much they want that job I guess.
Many companies also shop around for their kit, there is more than one supplier in the UK and many different types of quality panels and mounting kits available.

I personally am not keen on trade prices being put on a public forum, as sometimes the customers get the wrong end of the stick, and forget all the other expenses that are incurred when you are a PV installer.

One thing I will say though is it must be some very special scaffold to be that price.

 

[provr6]

There is no way of knowing, as it depends on the company. I will say as a customer I was put off by the reems of terms and conditions I got with my first quote. I read all of them and some were so biased towards the installer that they effectively gave him the right to invoice more than the original quote should he choose to do so.

Personally, I feel a quote should mean a firm quote, if you need more scaffold than you envisaged, you need more noggins etc then this should not be charged as an extra to the client as this should have been apparent when the premises is inspected at quote time.

Unfortunately I;m sure many quote low to start with and gradually increase the price as the installation becomes nearer.

 

[jupestar]

Simon, you need to price up the system your way considering your safety requirements and your knowledge of installations and equipment, explain it all to the client. And hope your superior knowledge and expertise is recognised and you get the job. There is a lot of companies out there at the moment who don;t have the knowledge who are driving prices down just to keep afloat. Basically turning over revenue to run a business, just clearing GM without worrying about overheads, eventually many will sink or move on. Don't think the only basis for comparison is to win on price.

There is a lot of shoddy work out there we lost one this week to a company who decided to under cut our quote by £500. I was using superior and more expensive equipment. I was offered the job if i could match the price. And i could have done easily and made more money as i'd have saved more than £500 using cheaper equipment. But rightly or wrongly it's not the route we go down. The market in the UK is getting more savvy especially in the commercial sector, where investors are buying good quality installations at a higher price depending on the materials used. It is my firm belief that quality worksmanship and equipment will pay off in long run.

 

[jupestar]

Unfortunately I;m sure many quote low to start with and gradually increase the price as the installation becomes nearer.

I'm not sure you can do this actually. Somebody might tell me otherwise but i thought the client had the right to pull out if additional cost were added.

 

[Glen Powell]

REAL says a quote is just that, it is not an estimate but a quote to carry out the work, Prices have come down a lot and there are better deals all around, If performance is good via PVsol and the like then I can't see the harm in competition.

What were the panels? if you can remember

 

[provr6]

I would gladly pay £500 to a company I felt more comfortable with and with better specced components. I think most people would but unfortunatley for a customer its difficult to know all the facts before a purchase. I have certainly learned a lot from these forums and wish I had known a bit more before my purchase.

I'm not against chinese panels per se, but I do think you should have heard of them. Obvioulsy that is a large reason for the undercut. However I don't think that a several thousand pound price difference would warrant the use of more well known panels as you could take the view that with the saving you could replace the panels with more cheap chinese panels 10 years down the line if it comes to it for the same (or less) outlay.

 

[Glen Powell]

There is a lot of shoddy work out there we lost one this week to a company who decided to under cut our quote by £500. I was using superior and more expensive equipment. I was offered the job if i could match the price. And i could have done easily and made more money as i'd have saved more than £500 using cheaper equipment. But rightly or wrongly it's not the route we go down. The market in the UK is getting more savvy especially in the commercial sector, where investors are buying good quality installations at a higher price depending on the materials used. It is my firm belief that quality worksmanship and equipment will pay off in long run.

Superior knowledge wins through and under normal curcumstances £500 is neither here no there to a customer with the money involved, the problem is sometimes branding, and branding is expensive, for example I am not allowed to sell HILTI kit to installers because I will compete with Hilti themselves, however I am allowed to bundle it into a kit which will give the installer massive savings compared to buying direct (depending on your monthly installs).

Hilti is a brand that everyone knows so is a good selling point, it is good gear, but, is it the best? I can sell Altec at a lower price and in my opinion is just as good but less known.

My opinion is no matter what you sell, if it is good and you can prove it using the correct calculations and knowing your stuff from roof to consumer then they will have no problems, do not be scared to go technical, but go technical in easy to understand terms, give them questions to ask the other guys, etc, etc.

The other guys are probably pushy so be relaxed about it, go in depth to what happens from start to finish, even down to policy about vehicles on the drive (some customers are scared of oil leaks), it is all important.

 

[jupestar]

provr6 - the only point I disagree with is the branded panels, despite the 'names' they are often of similar or lower quality, but can charge more. A name doesn't guarantee quality.

 

[19simon]

The Chinese panels are Kinve. I've done 21 installations - normally I fit Hyundai although I have fitted others including Schott, REC, Suntech and a french firm called Sillia. The Suntechs I fitted were out of square and had loads of messy silicone between the backing sheet and the frame and also round the connector box. The Suntechs have a good reputation as the premier Chinese manufacturer but seemed inferior to all the others I have fitted. The quote I saw had all the items listed separately and if the mark up on the inverter is anything to go by, they are paying about 54p a watt for the panels as opposed to the 82p I'm paying for the Hyundais, which obviously gives them a big cost advantage.

There is a lot of snobbery about panels but if the frames arent well finished and nobody in the factory can use a silicon gun, the it doesnt bode well for the longevity of the panels.

 

[FB.]

Kinve, as I understand it, insist on a large upfront payment (£50k?).
So they are only available to quite large companies who can afford to buy them virtually by the container load.

The panels on my roof - in the pic below - are Kinve KV250-60M (there is also an older KV250-60P {polycrystalline} available):

 

[19simon]

I think I know who did your installation!

 

[jupestar]

I don't think it is a good idea to put wholesale prices a public forum to be honest. I try not to mention them, as I also try not to criticise any specific brands.

I would just say just cause it costs a lot to become a member of a gang, doesn't mean the gang is worthwhile joining. (I'm not saying anything about Knive i genuinely know nothing about them). BUt in general this trick of needed a big bond/ min turnover to be able to supply a product doesn't automatically mean the product is good. It's just a route to market, and can mean cheaper products are sold to large companies at a rate they like without undermining the perceived quality of the product, allowing them to increase the mark up.

 

[FB.]

I think I know who did your installation!

Quite possibly; there are only a handful of companies who offer Kinve.
When my installation was done (back in the good old days of 43p FiT) I seem to recall that the company told me that they had suspicions about the SMA inverters which they had been using, so had switched to P1. Judging by the recurring topics on the SMA/Sanyo, it seems as if they made a good call.

But it's probably best that I don't give anyone free advertising, good or bad reviews - whichever the case may be!
Not that I have found any problems with my installation or its functioning.

 

[FB.]

.....allowing them to increase the mark up........

I think that is true.

I think that buying bulk lots of low-cost Kinve's improves a company's margins to the point where they can add £500 to the cost and still "look" competitive.

I suspect that I overpaid by £500, maybe a bit more. Even so, the "marked-up" quote was still competitive on the face of it.
As I mentioned before; the concern that I might get a 21p FiT (or worse!) if there were delays, made me reluctant to cough-up extra cash for higher-grade panels. As long as I got a decent inverter I wasn't so bothered about the panels.
Time will tell if I overpaid or made a bad choice - we'll have to see if the panels cause me trouble in a few years time and I will not mince words if my panels don't live up to realistic expectations.
In fairness, someone's gotta try the Kinve's and I don't mind being the test case.

.

 

[jupestar]

I don't think you can say you overpaid, any profit (if any) made by the company should be irrelevant, you are happy with your installation, its doing what you were told it will do and you understand what you brought. You got a good deal on a good tariff, it looks good on the roof (which is very important). and is performing well.

Its the people who don't have all the above who i believe have overpaid regardless of price.

 

[Gavin A]

way I see it, the government's actions over the last few months have guaranteed that companies will have to 'over charge' to some degree in the busy periods because they have to build up enough financial reserves in those periods to cover wages for at least a month, possibly 2 months after the cut off date when the work's dropped off... unless they just use subbies, in which case are they going to be around to resolve any issues down the line?

 

[FB.]

I don't think you can say you overpaid, any profit (if any) made by the company should be irrelevant, you are happy with your installation, its doing what you were told it will do and you understand what you brought. You got a good deal on a good tariff, it looks good on the roof (which is very important). and is performing well.

Its the people who don't have all the above who i believe have overpaid regardless of price.

I think that rather than giving the company complete freedom to fit what they wanted and how they wanted, I might have been rather:
"It's my array, I've got to live with it for 25 years and I'm forking-out almost a year's stocks-and-shares-ISA allowance to pay for it, so I want it done like this unless you can demonstrate a damned good reason why not!",
.
The installation "next door" (18 panels, estimated 200-ish Watts) was done by Mark Group of Leicester.
It looks satisfactory on the rear roof, but having had a close look round the front, I was very disappointed that the installers ran a chunky black conduit right down the front midline of the house from above a gable window down to the meter (I insisted that mine runs down the side between the two houses and enters through the outside wall of a utility room; out of sight) I don't know what would have happened if I gave the company freedom to do as they please as I wasn't going to leave anything to chance.
If "next door" was my house, I would have gone mental at the unsightliness of a black conduit down the middle of the front; if I was a potential house buyer, I'd not be enthusiastic about the front view of the house. But maybe I'm a fussy, grumpy old git.

 

[Glen Powell]

Well all I can say is it is down to quality of install as well as panels, I got a crate of beer from a happy customer, along with one for the installers and one for the guy who specked the job. All of this because we done the job properly put in the G59 and he at peak today was generating 4.3kw out of his 3.99kw array system.

We had a few teathing issues with the DNO but at last he is more than a happy bunny , I am glad of the beer but I did not really have anything to do with the deal other than train the surveyor and have a couple of phone calls with him over why the surveyor chose the panels and inverter.

 

[HKmk23]

Hmmm.
Hi Guy’s
First post and not quite sure if this is right place, but you guy’s all sound as though you know exactly what you are talking about so here goes.
I live in France and want a 4kw (minimum) solar array system.
I do not want to link it to EDF for refunds etc but want a grid tie inverter so it will power the house for free when the sun shines and EDF power the house at other times or when the solar is not man enough to power the cooker etc.
I want to have a sun tracking (one axis) ground mount for easy maintenance etc. as we live on the top of a hill with unrestricted 360° views.
I will drive to UK and collect and pay cash for the kit.
I obviously intend a DIY install, but I should be able to handle the mechanics and the electronics (retired IT guy).
What I would like advice on is…..
Panel make? (Thinking Hyundai 250W)
Inverter size and make? (Fronius, but what model?)
Anything I have not understood….

Thanks in anticipation of help.