AM2 Lighting

[Engineer54]

its been common practice to take neutrals to switches on every commercial contract i've ever worked on in the last 20 years that hasnt involved singles in conduit............

Well, within that time period you stated, i did some work for a large shopping centre, in the UK and i can categorically tell you it was NOT allowed on that project, and went even further, by actually stating in the specification that loop feeding at the switches was not acceptable!! One small sub contractor working on a smallish satellite building which was spec'd for T&E wiring didn't take any notice, and consequently had the lot ripped out and almost thrown off the job to boot!!

So i'd say, it's far from ''common practice''!!

 

[SirusDvirus]

Did the same on my AM2..T/E to the light and 3 core across the switches, neutrals joint in the switch and common joint in the intermediate and whilst on the seperate test rig I checked to see how that was done and same outcome, you can only do what you are asked on the AM2 spec :S ,but they now do switches with a neutral block as part of the switch.

 

[KAS1]

If you read my post I have said "in situations when they are not required" so I take it from your input you take neutrals to switches just to save a penny here and there, what is the point of your remark yet again a dig I fear, biff keep your remarks to yourself unless they are relevant

its been common practice to take neutrals to switches on every commercial contract i've ever worked on in the last 20 years that hasnt involved singles in conduit............

 

[Guest55]

If you read my post I have said "in situations when they are not required" so I take it from your input you take neutrals to switches just to save a penny here and there, what is the point of your remark yet again a dig I fear, biff keep your remarks to yourself unless they are relevant

firstly , i'll say what i want until admin says otherwise.......
secondly , my post was making the point that its industry practice to take the neutral to the switch on many commercial contracts , hence is relevent to the topic at hand.
thirdly , wiring it in such a manner doesnt save money at all as it uses more cable but yields other benefits to installation methods.

so when youve taken your head out your arse for 5 minutes come back and debate a bit more without being a numpty.

 

[KAS1]

Here we go again FFS

firstly , i'll say what i want until admin says otherwise.......
secondly , my post was making the point that its industry practice to take the neutral to the switch on many commercial contracts , hence is relevent to the topic at hand.
thirdly , wiring it in such a manner doesnt save money at all as it uses more cable but yields other benefits to installation methods.

so when youve taken your head out your arse for 5 minutes come back and debate a bit more without being a numpty.

- - - Updated - - -

Biff has spoken lol

 

[Guest55]

Here we go again FFS

nope , youre still being a numpty
;-)

 

[KAS1]

BIFF has spoken

nope , youre still being a numpty
;-)

 

[Guest55]

well done ! youve finally mastered the quote button lol.

 

[KAS1]

FFS JFO work that out BIFF FFS

well done ! youve finally mastered the quote button lol.

 

[Silly Sausage]

and 4thly,
I'd rather listen to Biff any day of the week!

 

[ackbarthestar]

Oh come on.....
It usually follows whatever the Principal Electrical Engineer specifies.

If that person doesn't want neutrals, or from what E54 states, live feeds ???!!!***, down at the switches then that's what you do. But I suspect these are tightly specified and not open to negotiation. I've been on both types of jobs and where your autonomy is limited you then RTFI s and do what you're are told.

 

[Lou7]

I've been sparking for 40 years and the only time I've been told how to wire was when I was an apprentice. For me it's no neutral at switch unless its double pole. If you need another light to be installed its only a matter of lifting a few floorboards rather than chasing out you switch drop.

 

[KAS1]

This sounds like a tradesman to me

I've been sparking for 40 years and the only time I've been told how to wire was when I was an apprentice. For me it's no neutral at switch unless its double pole. If you need another light to be installed its only a matter of lifting a few floorboards rather than chasing out you switch drop.

 

[Dcf]

I'll agree with biff.
Looping in at switches has been a common method of wiring for the last 20 years
i would think it is the most common method in domestic these days round my way anyway.
some on here don't like it.some even look for non existent regs to justify their point of view.
ill carry on wiring whatever way suits the job.
i personally hate proteus boards.
doesnt mean to say I've not had to fit one when it's all that would fit in the space.
a means to an end an all that.

 

[ackbarthestar]

I've been sparking for 40 years and the only time I've been told how to wire was when I was an apprentice. For me it's no neutral at switch unless its double pole. If you need another light to be installed its only a matter of lifting a few floorboards rather than chasing out you switch drop.

Having started in the electronics industry, I was given cart blanche to develop my own working strategies, and safe working practices. Changing over to the electrical industry the dangers were still there but different.

However, the Electrical Industry methods of working were/are more NCO based and by the numbers. So if I wanted to be thrashed on a daily basis then I could have I hired some tart to give me one, but after 30 years I'm still in it so it appears I'd prefer the rough hand of some miserable old git rather than some voluptuous, socking clad siren - I need help ! ....Lol

 

[Engineer54]

Oh come on.....
It usually follows whatever the Principal Electrical Engineer specifies.

If that person doesn't want neutrals, or from what E54 states, live feeds ???!!!***, down at the switches then that's what you do. But I suspect these are tightly specified and not open to negotiation. I've been on both types of jobs and where your autonomy is limited you then RTFI s and do what you're are told.

So what don't you understand about the term ''loop feeding through switches''??

I don't have anything against a neutral at a switch, ...if and when a neutral is actually required. What i don't like or accept is looping through switches. Which seems to have become more common since the hoards of Electrical Trainee hit the industry, and the overall standard of collage lecturers, literary fell through the floor!!

 

[Rockingit]

I design to both methods, it depends on what makes the most cost effective sense for the plans. Anything with lots of non-plate lighting fixtures and its loop at switch, though loop at ceiling tends to be cheaper.

 

[Marvo]

There's valid reasons for both methods, neither method has preference in regs so it would be a combination of personal preference and the requirements of the particular installation you're working on.


In my country it's standard domestic and commercial installation practice to loop the entire supply as a radial through the switches and just run a 3-wire switched supply to the light fitting.

 

[Outspoken]

Oh come off it Marvo, we all know in Safa you guys still use Tiley Lamps and Parrafin for your primary lighting, how the hell you two way that is beyond me!! :001_icon16:

 

[Marvo]

2-way switching of paraffin lighting is damn tricky, it involves a couple of garden canes, some string and duct tape but it's best left to the pro's

 

[Engineer54]

There's valid reasons for both methods, neither method has preference in regs so it would be a combination of personal preference and the requirements of the particular installation you're working on.


In my country it's standard domestic and commercial installation practice to loop the entire supply as a radial through the switches and just run a 3-wire switched supply to the light fitting.

What wiring system do you use mostly on domestic commercial in SA?? Would it be PVC conduit and singles??

 

[KAS1]

I remember when all the old "Police houses" in my area were all conduit / singles, no loop in loop out at the lights then for the lives (that was done at the switches) but they still didn't take neutrals to switches for the sake of it. I find it amazing that people are taking neutrals to switches for no reason, agreed when they are required, such as DP isolation or other smart switches no problem. I've used photo cells that have pulsed neutrals which required a retractive switch, so the neutral was required. However I still don't understand the logic for neutrals at switches if not required, perhaps I'm missing something................

 

[ackbarthestar]

So what don't you understand about the term ''loop feeding through switches''??

I don't have anything against a neutral at a switch, ...if and when a neutral is actually required. What i don't like or accept is looping through switches. Which seems to have become more common since the hoards of Electrical Trainee hit the industry, and the overall standard of collage lecturers, literary fell through the floor!!

The accepted wiring convention for singles in conduit has always been 2-plate, loop the neutrals at the lights and the feeds at the switches. Your suggestion appears to be a 3-plate variant. I've not seen so much of that, as a specified new install, although i have found variations of using a mixture of 2 and 3 plate on lighting circuits when I&Ting. I usually record such wiring without a code.

 

[Marvo]

What wiring system do you use mostly on domestic commercial in SA?? Would it be PVC conduit and singles??

Usually it would be pvc conduit and singles or more increasingly nowadays conduit and flat twin I assume because there's little price difference and it would save installation time.


I'm not familiar with the '2-plate' and '3-plate' terminology, maybe you can give me a quick rundown.....

 

[ackbarthestar]

Usually it would be pvc conduit and singles or more increasingly nowadays conduit and flat twin I assume because there's little price difference and it would save installation time.


I'm not familiar with the '2-plate' and '3-plate' terminology, maybe you can give me a quick rundown.....

Single in conduit = 2-plate

The 'plate' being the loop in

Neutrals are looped in at the lights
Feeds are looped in at the switches


Other wiring systems such as T&E, MIMS or even SWA if you like = '3-plate'

Both Neutrals and Feeds are looped in at the lights or switches

 

[ackbarthestar]

Thanks for that Marvo,
I forget that many of you who use this site have not trained under UK regulations so are unaware of our particular conventions.

I didn't mention flexibles in plastic conduit, as used in France and other countries. You often find twist connectors in terminal boxes where both the neutrals and Feeds are separately twisted together. This is as we (UK) would know it as '3-plate' wiring.

 

[Dan]

Just bumping some threads in the Electrical Wiring Theories and Regulations forum category here on our Electricians Forums. If this specific topic isn't current, just ignore it, it'll drop off the list in no time. However, if it's something you'd like to contribute to, feel free to reply and bring it back into current discussion.