Are my electrics safe?

[Justmovedin]

Hello all,

Firstly I am not an electrician but I am clued up on atleast the basics, I have just bought a house and as my kids will live here I would like to make sure the electrics have not been done by cowboys so I will start from the beginning.

My living room has 2 double sockets, 1 both sides of the chimney breast, one is attached to the ring mains and the other is a spur. I would like to add 2 more double sockets in this room so I enlisted the help of my out of date electrician father (16th edition), to my knowledge extending a ring mains is ok for a competent person as long as not messing around with the CU. The wires to the extra sockets will be 2.5mm twin and earth continuing the ring mains and will be just behind 12.5mm plasterboard with metal capping. This circuit is RCD protected.

First question, is there any 17th edition changes to this my father will be unaware of or does this sound ok?

Secondly, upon inspecting the MCBs we have found out that the upstairs and downstairs socket MCBs do not switch of the sockets, but switching of the RCD protecting that gang (UP sockets, DWN sockets, Kitchen and Shower (non existent anymore) does turn the sockets off. There are 2.5mm wires going to these breakers but it doesn't seam to switch anything off.

Is this ok?

Thirdly the kitchen is an extension labelled cooker on the MCB. It does switch of all kitchen sockets including an electric oven I believe to be 2.6kw. however this is a ring of 2.5mm twin and earth protected by a 40amp MCB and the same RCD protecting all other sockets.

Is this ok?

And lastly if I were to have an electrician check over the electrics what would this involve, multi meter type stuff or pulling up floor boards and ceilings etc? And cost for this?

Many thanks, I give you alot to work with and all advice is greatly appreciated.

 

[Dannyg8810]

Get a EICR carried out ,no one can advise you online if your electrics are safe !

 

[Justmovedin]

Get a EICR carried out ,no one can advise you online if your electrics are safe !

Ok what's this and approx cost?

 

[Dannyg8810]

Condition report on your electrical installation

Costing depends on where you live and amount of circuits etc...

 

[Pete999]

Sounds like you need an Electrical Installation Condition Report (EICR for short)
An EICR would / should should be carried out by a competent Electrician coupled with the right equipment, and yes special test equipment will be needed.
The report would include Insulation resistance checks on the fixed wiring, condition of the accessories switched, sockets etc a certificate will be issued on completion of the report, the Electrician may fix small faults as he/she goes along, but anything witch requires upheaval of carpets and floor boards, should be discussed with you BEFORE any faults that are found that cannot be repaired as the report continues, as this will obviously incur a further cost to you, don't know how big your house is, and prices vary but a decent report will probably cost around £200 -£300, where in the Midlands are you situated. A pre visit to your house by the Electrician will enable him to provide an accurate quotation.file:///C:/Users/Pete/AppData/Local/Temp/Best-Practice-Guide-4-Issue-4-.pdf

 

[The Ghost]

I have seen people advertising an EICR for as little as £95.00 (I find this to be a very suspicious price) this is where all the circuits are tested and the equipment is inspected for damage/age/condition/overload etc. It can take 2-4 hours and usually does not involve dismantling, or should not. It does not cover anything under floor boards or in walls as these cannot be inspected. However it will give a very good idea of the state of your existing system.
I would caution that unless the person undertaking the inspection is experienced and familiar with these systems, you can end up with a questionable certificate. And there is always the possibility that work will be suggested that is not necessary if the person does not have the skills mentioned above.

 

[David M]

There maybe a member on here local to you who for a small fee might be able to come and take a look and advise/quote you on what you require. It would be best to get the work done by an Electrician who is a member of one of the electrical schemes as additional works like what you have described should be completed in accordance with the latest regs and logged with building control.
Aside from that follow Dannyg8810's advise and get an EICR done first.

 

[Wilko]

Hi JMI, I think you are right to look into this. There are issues in each area you mention and there may be more that haven't come to your attention yet, which is why an inspection is recommended. As would using an experienced Electrician who comes recommended by someone you know

Edit : re adding a socket - this IET article on safe zones may be helpful ...
Cables in walls - IET Electrical - http://electrical.----------/wiring-matters/54/cables-in-walls/index.cfm

 

[Lucien Nunes]

In particular, the fact that neither MCB for the sockets switches them off, suggests the two circuits may have been interconnected somewhere. This defeats the MCBs (the circuit(s) would only be protected at 64A) and could be dangerous in the event of overload or short-circuit. Comprehensive testing would identify where this has occurred, if it has. I would not modify the circuits in any way until tested.

 

[Justmovedin]

Many thanks for the advice. I'm in West Bromwich. The whole house 3 bed 2 reception room is outdated victorian and will be having ceilings walls floors replaced etc, the origin plan was to go room by room but now I'm thinking would it be best to gut all the rooms at the same time and basically rewire the house with new colour wire as currently it's black and red. Put plugs where I want them Label everything clearly and all wires easily traceable due to ceilings being down etc, then get an electrician to change my consumer unit for a more modern one as at a later date sheds and other outdoor equipment will be connected and currently I only have space for 4 more mcbs, also put the mcbs in a better arrangements such as the upstairs sockets downstairs lighting and downstairs sockets upstairs lighting and being on separate RCDs ( I read that on here)

That way I know my electrics have been done correctly, upto date and also easy work for the electrician. I don't have 3 - 4k to pay someone to do the whole lot for me and as my dad is competent person and you guys advice on latest regs this would be ok yes?

 

[Justmovedin]

Many thanks for the advice. I'm in West Bromwich. The whole house 3 bed 2 reception room is outdated victorian and will be having ceilings walls floors replaced etc, the origin plan was to go room by room but now I'm thinking would it be best to gut all the rooms at the same time and basically rewire the house with new colour wire as currently it's black and red. Put plugs where I want them Label everything clearly and all wires easily traceable due to ceilings being down etc, then get an electrician to change my consumer unit for a more modern one as at a later date sheds and other outdoor equipment will be connected and currently I only have space for 4 more mcbs, also put the mcbs in a better arrangements such as the upstairs sockets downstairs lighting and downstairs sockets upstairs lighting and being on separate RCDs ( I read that on here)

That way I know my electrics have been done correctly, upto date and also easy work for the electrician. I don't have 3 - 4k to pay someone to do the whole lot for me and as my dad is competent person and you guys advice on latest regs this would be ok?

 

[SparkyChick]

In this case, my advice is don't go for a cheap EICR. With the little information you've provided, I would be charge around £240 and would expect to be on-site inspecting and testing for around 6 hours.

I have my suspicions about the issue with the MCBs not turning off the socket circuits. There are two options I would look at in the first instance... 1. the MCBs have failed, welded contacts or jammed mechanism and 2. somebody at sometime has connected one leg of each ring to each MCB. This is easy to diagnose by turning off both MCBs. If the power to the sockets goes off, this is most likely the cause. The other option is that someone has made a boo boo elsewhere and somehow there is alternative source of power to the socket circuits.

But, get a good quality EICR done and take it from there.

 

[Pete999]

Many thanks for the advice. I'm in West Bromwich. The whole house 3 bed 2 reception room is outdated victorian and will be having ceilings walls floors replaced etc, the origin plan was to go room by room but now I'm thinking would it be best to gut all the rooms at the same time and basically rewire the house with new colour wire as currently it's black and red. Put plugs where I want them Label everything clearly and all wires easily traceable due to ceilings being down etc, then get an electrician to change my consumer unit for a more modern one as at a later date sheds and other outdoor equipment will be connected and currently I only have space for 4 more mcbs, also put the mcbs in a better arrangements such as the upstairs sockets downstairs lighting and downstairs sockets upstairs lighting and being on separate RCDs ( I read that on here)

That way I know my electrics have been done correctly, upto date and also easy work for the electrician. I don't have 3 - 4k to pay someone to do the whole lot for me and as my dad is competent person and you guys advice on latest regs this would be ok yes?

Judging from this post you have some DIY skills, however doing the wiring yourself and getting a qualified Electrician to change the CU, seems without trying to be rude a triffle daft, no self respecting Electrician would do this and certify the installation, as he would need to be able to ensure the wiring you said you intended to install has been done correctly.
What you are suggesting. quite frankly is suspect, you do realise that there will be some items of the installation that will have to be reported to building control, that will cost you somewhere in the region of £300, if you do this work yourself.
Get the EICR done and take it from there, although anyone who is deemed competent could do the EICR I strongly recommend you employ an Electrician who is a member of one of the CP schemes, NICEIC, ELECSA, NAPIT, STROMA there are numerous schemes out there to chose from.

 

[Justmovedin]

I have great DIY skills and have taken electrician course 10 years ago so understanding is ok, but as my father was a very experienced electrician undertaking many complete rewires domestic and commercial and now only out of the game due to a stroke my opinion is that with his and your advice on latest regs I could get the job done properly, legally and save alot of money.

I understand about an electrician signing it of but if he/she can very easily see, trace wires without having to remove anything what would be the problem. I'm a stickler for neatness

 

[Pete999]

You have my advice, and seem to be intent on doing the work your way, I believe my advice to be correct, as I hope will other forum members, I for one will not be offering anymore advice as you suggested in your last post, not as a sort of " blow you Mate I told you what I thought", but as a safety issue, it would I think be dangerous to advise an amateur in such an ambitious project.
You did an Electricians course 10 years ago, your Dad has been out of the game for a while, there have been numerous changes in the BS7671 since then, some good some bad depends on you're thought process, Tried to help but now I'm out.

 

[SparkyChick]

In England there is a process of Third Party Certification. You should engage the services of a suitably qualified spark BEFORE you even run in a cable. They will design, you will install exactly to their specification and they will come and inspect and test at various key stages and then at the end of it, sign it off.

It can be tricky to get someone to sign it off at the end of the job and normally requires you go a different route that involves an EICR on the whole property and then going through a somewhat expensive regularisation process with your local building control department.

 

[Justmovedin]

Jesus man. How did you take offense to that message??? I appreciate your advice but from where I'm coming from I could pay to get the EICR test done and it could come back safe, but what's to say that the previous owners didn't just do the electrics themselves and never had it signed of or involved building control. Your advice is just that advice, and it doesn't go in one ear and out the other but your advice doesn't necessarily help me solve my problem. Yes I'm edging toward getting that test but if that costs me nearly £300 for example and then it shows up my wiring is all messed up or they condem it etc then the costs could spiral up and up to God knows what, atleast if I just get the whole thing done before hand as I want plugs moved and added in other rooms too, I will know it's done properly, where the wires etc but I can't afford an electrician to do full rewire and if electrician comes in as if it's a new build because wires exposed anything done not to standard can be easily rectified.

Instead of going mad and saying my advice is getting a test and that's that taking it or leave it and if you leave it your an idiot, give me more insight into 1, what my dad won't know anymore, 2 building controls and costs etc, and things like that, then I can say, yes I am willing to learn what needs to be done or no ok that's alot of work, that's above my head.

So my question is if I get that test done and it comes back ok, does that mean my electrics are safe and that's the only certificate I need? Will that prove they have been installed correctly or building control have been notified of whatever they need to be notified when they were installed?

 

[Justmovedin]

Jesus man. How did you take offense to that message??? I appreciate your advice but from where I'm coming from I could pay to get the EICR test done and it could come back safe, but what's to say that the previous owners didn't just do the electrics themselves and never had it signed of or involved building control. Your advice is just that advice, and it doesn't go in one ear and out the other but your advice doesn't necessarily help me solve my problem. Yes I'm edging toward getting that test but if that costs me nearly £300 for example and then it shows up my wiring is all messed up or they condem it etc then the costs could spiral up and up to God knows what, atleast if I just get the whole thing done before hand as I want plugs moved and added in other rooms too, I will know it's done properly, where the wires etc but I can't afford an electrician to do full rewire and if electrician comes in as if it's a new build because wires exposed anything done not to standard can be easily rectified.

Instead of going mad and saying my advice is getting a test and that's that taking it or leave it and if you leave it your an idiot, give me more insight into 1, what my dad won't know anymore, 2 building controls and costs etc, and things like that, then I can say, yes I am willing to learn what needs to be done or no ok that's alot of work, that's above my head.

So my question is if I get that test done and it comes back ok, does that mean my electrics are safe and that's the only certificate I need? Will that prove they have been installed correctly or building control have been notified of whatever they need to be notified when they were installed?

 

[Justmovedin]

Thanks sparky chick, that's more the advice I'm looking for. So which in your mind would be the more cost effective option and by how much? So I'm guessing I couldn't just follow the path of the existing wiring and remove old as I go along?

 

[Justmovedin]

Oh sorry Pete just read your message again, first time I read it was on the move so didn't read it properly. Thanks anyway, as I said before I appreciate all advice.

 

[The Ghost]

It is likely from what you say that between the two of you, you could hack your way through on the installation. You are suggesting with the aid of up to date electricians on this forum what could possibly go wrong? Well don't forget your question was is my electrics safe? Well, from what you describe, and answers here confirm, no they are not! To make your electrics safe you will need to have people working on it who are safe! Clearly you are concerned that your installation will be safe including additions you are proposing. If you pan back for a moment, your granny wants a house re-wire and you send in two guys who have experience and knowledge which is now out-dated on the basis they can do the wiring just not up to date? Do you want to live in a house that is not up to scratch electrically. Knowing @Pete999 from posts I generally find him genial and non-offensive with sound advice. To be fair to him I believe he has not taken offence merely advised you not to undertake such a project yourself. I must say in principle I agree with him. Although you say you have done electrical training and your Father is an experienced electrician there is an inconsistency in your questions. If there is the expertise you suggest then the questions you are asking belie that experience. Again I think @Pete999 and other electricians would be loathe to "walk" you through this not least because of the inconsistency of questions (very inexperienced) against experience (why then don't you know the answers?), but also I and others will be concerned for your safety on the job and in the future, and would not want to be the person who advised you and harm resulted from that. I hope you understand that and re-read what was said to you. You are asking for advice, if you don't like the advice at least don't shoot the messenger. Now...can we be friends?
EDIT: just seen your post to Pete

 

[SparkyChick]

So my question is if I get that test done and it comes back ok, does that mean my electrics are safe and that's the only certificate I need? Will that prove they have been installed correctly or building control have been notified of whatever they need to be notified when they were installed?

If you get an EICR done on the cheap, based on the ones I've seen, they aren't worth the paper they are printed on. We seem to be adopting the term 'drive by EICR' where they guy rocks up spends a couple of hours on site, you pay £80-£120 and one of two things will happen.... you'll either get an EICR that says it safe (don't know how they can ascertain that in a couple of hours personally as I wouldn't be able to sleep at night if I adopted that approach) or you'll get an EICR that says it's unsafe accompanied by a possibly over inflated quote for the remedial work. One of the most common strategies seems to be suggest a consumer unit replacement.

If existing work has not been notified, you will need to follow a regularisation process which involves a full EICR. The best way to get pricing for this and other options is to speak to your local building control team, as you're in West Brom, give Sandwell MBC a call as I think they'll be responsible for your area (spent some time living in West Brom and working at SMBC many moons ago). Some nice pubs, the Factory chain, when I was there, never did get to try a Cow Pie from the Pie factory though, gutted.

 

[Justmovedin]

It is likely from what you say that between the two of you, you could hack your way through on the installation. You are suggesting with the aid of up to date electricians on this forum what could possibly go wrong? Well don't forget your question was is my electrics safe? Well, from what you describe, and answers here confirm, no they are not! To make your electrics safe you will need to have people working on it who are safe! Clearly you are concerned that your installation will be safe including additions you are proposing. If you pan back for a moment, your granny wants a house re-wire and you send in two guys who have experience and knowledge which is now out-dated on the basis they can do the wiring just not up to date? Do you want to live in a house that is not up to scratch electrically. Knowing @Pete999 from posts I generally find him genial and non-offensive with sound advice. To be fair to him I believe he has not taken offence merely advised you not to undertake such a project yourself. I must say in principle I agree with him. Although you say you have done electrical training and your Father is an experienced electrician there is an inconsistency in your questions. If there is the expertise you suggest then the questions you are asking belie that experience. Again I think @Pete999 and other electricians would be loathe to "walk" you through this not least because of the inconsistency of questions (very inexperienced) against experience (why then don't you know the answers?), but also I and others will be concerned for your safety on the job and in the future, and would not want to be the person who advised you and harm resulted from that. I hope you understand that and re-read what was said to you. You are asking for advice, if you don't like the advice at least don't shoot the messenger. Now...can we be friends?
EDIT: just seen your post to Pete

I did re read and apologised for my original miss understanding of what he wrote, I read the bold words first then the rest later. To be clear I'm not asking for a walk through, I want to see just how out of date my dad is before I think about doing it myself. He has no interest in connecting wired up to CUs, all wiring would not be live until I get an electrician to check it over and connect up a new CU.

Basically I'm just trying to cut of the fee for the time taken to run wires around the house and connect them to plugs, (upstairs and downstairs to g mains) Surely the basics of an install??? Plus as I said before every wire would be exposed and easily identifiable to the electrician

 

[Justmovedin]

If you get an EICR done on the cheap, based on the ones I've seen, they aren't worth the paper they are printed on. We seem to be adopting the term 'drive by EICR' where they guy rocks up spends a couple of hours on site, you pay £80-£120 and one of two things will happen.... you'll either get an EICR that says it safe (don't know how they can ascertain that in a couple of hours personally as I wouldn't be able to sleep at night if I adopted that approach) or you'll get an EICR that says it's unsafe accompanied by a possibly over inflated quote for the remedial work. One of the most common strategies seems to be suggest a consumer unit replacement.

If existing work has not been notified, you will need to follow a regularisation process which involves a full EICR. The best way to get pricing for this and other options is to speak to your local building control team, as you're in West Brom, give Sandwell MBC a call as I think they'll be responsible for your area (spent some time living in West Brom and working at SMBC many moons ago). Some nice pubs, the Factory chain, when I was there, never did get to try a Cow Pie from the Pie factory though, gutted.

All the good pubs have gone now, bare town. Come to think of it why did I buy a house here. So how do I find out if it has been installed properly with building control informed? Phone Sandwell MBC? Plus when did it even become necessary for building control to be informed? I'm guessing of the work was completed before this then it's ok?

 

[SparkyChick]

All the good pubs have gone now, bare town. Come to think of it why did I buy a house here. So how do I find out if it has been installed properly with building control informed? Phone Sandwell MBC? Plus when did it even become necessary for building control to be informed? I'm guessing of the work was completed before this then it's ok?

When did it become notifiable.. unless I'm much mistaken, 2004 with the introduction of Part P of the building regulations. This is available on line, in England, you work to the 2013 edition.

Phone SMBC and speak with their building control team, they should be able to advise on pricing, options and whether there has been work notified to them.

 

[Justmovedin]

So here's what I'm thinking at the moment. Create a new upstairs and downstairs ring mains with all plugs where I want them but leave the wires dead ready to be connected by electrician who will be able to see all pathways wires take ( worst case scenario I did it wrong and just potentially wasted wire money even most could probably be reused) then the electrician who connects this can do an ECIR check or is this someone different) oh and I'll look more into building controls at a later date but before I decide to do anything.

Any problems with this? Atleast no danger of electrocution, just my time being wasted


Also I'm thinking as a long term thing it would be more beneficial to get the qualifications to do stuff myself as there will be many add ons at later date such as shed, pool pumps heaters ect ect. But I'm only interested in doing stuff for myself or close family friends. Not for financial gain. Way I see it is full rewire would cost 3k ish? Traing would cost what? 1.5kish and last me a lifetime so long as I keep updating my qualifications.

Does this sound ludicrous?

 

[telectrix]

my tuppence worth. would you put a new engine in your car before knowing whether or not the existing engine was beyond repair, or just had a minor fault? NO/,

same with your electrics. get the EICR done first. then you know what needs doing; add what you want doing ( in the way of extra sockets etc.), then discuss with electrician the best way forward, and if he'll allow you to do the first fix, with him inspecting as you go. any new circuits, work in bathroom and CU upgrades are notifiable to building control. current regs., as from Jan 2016 insist the CUs are steel cased, not plastic. that's one of the newer regs. that you father may not know about.

 

[Justmovedin]

my tuppence worth. would you put a new engine in your car before knowing whether or not the existing engine was beyond repair, or just had a minor fault? NO/,

same with your electrics. get the EICR done first. then you know what needs doing; add what you want doing ( in the way of extra sockets etc.), then discuss with electrician the best way forward, and if he'll allow you to do the first fix, with him inspecting as you go. any new circuits, work in bathroom and CU upgrades are notifiable to building control. current regs., as from Jan 2016 insist the CUs are steel cased, not plastic. that's one of the newer regs. that you father may not know about.

Ok you win. I started out as a mechanic so you hit a note there. Do all qualified electricians with latest regs and all that able to do this test? Or are there specific electricians in specific area of domestic electrics and also if test comes back ok then I CAN extend ring and add sockets myself legally?

 

[Dannyg8810]

Ok you win. I started out as a mechanic so you hit a note there. Do all qualified electricians with latest regs and all that able to do this test? Or are there specific electricians in specific area of domestic electrics and also if test comes back ok then I CAN extend ring and add sockets myself legally?

If your competent in inspecting and testing yes,just because your working on an exsisting circuit it still needs testing to ensure safe and within bs7671 regulations .

Just get an electrician .........it's a lot safer mate

 

[Octopus]

If you do get an EICR........... may be a reasonable idea to be around on the day and understand what you are getting for your money.

From what you outline, your house has the hallmarks of DIY Dave who hasn't a clue.

Electrics are like house foundations - they are nearly all invisible and if something goes wrong its expensive to put right.

As for DIY rewires and getting a spark to sign it off - as I always say ............... good luck with that - because when people ask me to do this I simply say NO.

Your best bet would be a decent EICR, and if a rewire is recommended, then get the agreement form said spark for you to do the lifting, chasing etc ............... and maybe even help running cables and then the plastering and making good.

.............. some sparks don't mind "missing" out on these bits........

 

[Justmovedin]

EICR booked in for Wednesday, the for the advices guys and sparky chick. Will update next Wednesday

 

[Billsays]

EICR booked in for Wednesday, the for the advices guys and sparky chick. Will update next Wednesday

If your Father was experienced in doing rewires under the 16th edition save your money. Get your Dad to rewire it, or you do the work under your dads supervision. Not a massive difference between 16th and 17th edition in houses just get your Dad to fit a metal consumer unit with RCBOs.