Being registered.............

[HappyHippyDad]

Just thinking aloud.

Retirement is a long way off, but when it does happen I may well carry on doing smaller jobs once or twice a week. I don't think I would stay registered, but I may end up doing the odd CU change, or lets say I was even on a job where a building inspector was involved.

Now, I could still issue a certificate. All the building inspector wants is the certificate, then he/she signs the job off. With a CU change I could still issue a certificate, thus when the customer sells their house they have the required paperwork and will not find themselves in trouble.

Apart from this being morally wrong and also breaking the BS7671 rules, is there anyway the customer could find themselves out of pocket or having problems (as they will have a certificate)? Who actually checks to see if the job has been notified, what is it used for?

I must add that I am fully registered and do everything by the book. Just having a lazy Sunday and thinking to the distant future, when I may not even do enough notifiable jobs to be allowed to stay registered.

 

[westward10]

Think about something else plus it is Saturday.

 

[Dustydazzler]

Gas Fitters will have the same issue when they drop out of GasSafe ?

The gas fitter that changed my parents boiler a few years ago (old family friend is his 70s) issued a sum total of 0 paperwork

 

[HappyHippyDad]

Think about something else plus it is Saturday.

One day off isn't too bad

Yep, I've moved on from my retirement thoughts now. Mowing the lawn and cleaning the house. Christ, this is turning into one of those really boring facebook pages where you detail your life rather than live it!!

 

[telectrix]

me now retired, 75, not cps member now. if i want to do a CU change, i will complete an EIC, all accurate. as for notification, sod it. one life... live long and prosper.

 

[OnlQQker]

One day off isn't too bad

Yep, I've moved on from my retirement thoughts now. Mowing the lawn and cleaning the house. Christ, this is turning into one of those really boring facebook pages where you detail your life rather than live it!!

This is my idea of cleaning the house!

 

[pirate]

Retired as I am, I have constant calls on my time for small jobs.
HHD, you will always be busy, but also free to turn down stuff too.
My diary is full with fitting smokes to the new Scottish regs, and it's boring AF...especially with the poor supply chain, and I have stopped taking new orders now for that reason.
Yesterday I took out a poorly fitted light fitting in a wardrobe, replaced it, got 2 bottles of a decent Rioja for my trouble...so £20 worth for 20 minutes' worth of time, and it was my next-door neighbour so no travelling or lugging tools. I appreciate retirement is a while away, but don't fear it, just embrace it!
As @telectrix said..."one life"!

 

[Dustydazzler]

My dad retired around 2015 after spending 50 years in the trade , turned 80 last year and his happier than ever,]
No stress , no part pee , no scam fees or site inspections , no travelling to and from London

He has more money than he could spend in the next 50 years so literally now does what he wants when he wants to

 

[Midwest]

Retired from a Scheme some 4 years ago now. Did some alterations in my house, which included adding one CU & altering another.

Before I started, and as the building refurb was under a Building Notice, I spoke with my BC. I could document my qualifications, and could provide my last Scheme assessment to carry out the electrical work myself & provide certification. Just needed signing off in the Completion Certificate.

My BC started off quite happy to accept this, however when push came to shove they wanted me to provide an EICR for the new work. I did try one third party installer, but they weren't interested. In the end I got someone in to do the work and sign it off. Crazy, but say la vie.

Before I retired, I had quite a few customers requesting copies of EIC's, Minor Works, and how they could get copies of compliance certificates, all for house sales.

@HappyHippyDad, I'd think of a different retirement plan.

 

[HappyHippyDad]

Retired from a Scheme some 4 years ago now. Did some alterations in my house, which included adding one CU & altering another.

Before I started, and as the building refurb was under a Building Notice, I spoke with my BC. I could document my qualifications, and could provide my last Scheme assessment to carry out the electrical work myself & provide certification. Just needed signing off in the Completion Certificate.

My BC started off quite happy to accept this, however when push came to shove they wanted me to provide an EICR for the new work. I did try one third party installer, but they weren't interested. In the end I got someone in to do the work and sign it off. Crazy, but say la vie.

Before I retired, I had quite a few customers requesting copies of EIC's, Minor Works, and how they could get copies of compliance certificates, all for house sales.

@HappyHippyDad, I'd think of a different retirement plan.

This was my original point. Building control would be the one signing off the job at your property and all they would have wanted is to have a completed EIC. They would then sign off the work.

Of course, you could have just completed an EICR?

It does push you towards the @telectrix way of doing it though doesn't it. Just do the CU change (correctly and safely), issue EIC and move on, bypassing building control.

 

[Midwest]

This was my original point. Building control would be the one signing off the job at your property and all they would have wanted is to have a completed EIC. They would then sign off the work.

Of course, you could have just completed an EICR?

It does push you towards the @telectrix way of doing it though doesn't it. Just do the CU change (correctly and safely), issue EIC and move on, bypassing building control.

I think your find that very few BC's have the wherewithal to sign off electrical work; they don't want the responsivity.

And its all well & good doing some notifiable work, then leaving the owner of the property to sort out compliance. I don't think thats right personally.

 

[7029 dave]

IMO there are two very different situations, doing payed work for Joe public and doing your own work in your own property.
Some would do the work regardless of being in a CPS. I might be a bit twitchy at the first, but not the second.

 

[LukeD]

There is a huge black market for paperwork at the moment .House sellers playing "catch up"

 

[Dustydazzler]

when we purchased out current 3 bed-semi 6 years ago , there was no paperwork for the single storey rear extension

£65 for an indem policy at the advice of the solicitor and job done

 

[partplonker]

I think your find that very few BC's have the wherewithal to sign off electrical work; they don't want the responsivity.

That's been my experience with my local BC. They told me to just get an EICR from a registered spark when I asked what it would cost to have them inspect my work.

I'm not registered and most of the electrical work I do is maintenance on one big installation, the majority of which is not notifiable. When I do the odd job for friends and family like board changes or other notifiable domestic work, I still do all the initial verification/testing and prepare an EIC before getting a CPS registered spark that I know in to do me an EICR for BC.

 

[Dustydazzler]

I had around 12 - 18 years when I didn't bother to re new my CPS scam membership , and during this time I did a couple notifiable jobs. My local BC was happy to accept an EICR in order to comply.
Not strictly correct but my local inspector seemed happy with an EICR,

 

[HappyHippyDad]

I guess my original question was ... How can the homeowner get in trouble if they have the correct certificates?

They come to sell the house and have all the required EIC's and MEIWC's. That is what will be asked for. How can they get into trouble? The work will not have been notified, but they have the certificates. I cant imagine any solicitor is contacting the building authorities at the time of sale to cross match all the certificates given to make sure the work was notified.

I have no intention of doing this at the moment or for the foreseeable future. Even when I retire i doubt I doubt I shall ever be in that situation. it just popped into mind and I thought i'd ask.

 

[Dustydazzler]

Any missing paperwork , warranties and certificates like Fensa or GasSafe and the buyer will be required to purchase an indemnity policy to cover for the missing paperwork from the solicitors

Had this on 3 occasions when we have purchased houses

A homeowner / seller would get into Zero 'trouble' for either losing the paperwork or not having it in the first place

The only time a homeowner may get into trouble 'after the fact' is if an extension was built with no planning permission

 

[brianmoooore]

The only time a homeowner may get into trouble 'after the fact' is if an extension was built with no planning permission

And not then, if it's been 'substantially finished' for four years or more.

 

[Midwest]

I guess my original question was ... How can the homeowner get in trouble if they have the correct certificates?

They come to sell the house and have all the required EIC's and MEIWC's. That is what will be asked for. How can they get into trouble? The work will not have been notified, but they have the certificates. I cant imagine any solicitor is contacting the building authorities at the time of sale to cross match all the certificates given to make sure the work was notified.

I have no intention of doing this at the moment or for the foreseeable future. Even when I retire i doubt I doubt I shall ever be in that situation. it just popped into mind and I thought i'd ask.

The home owner has the ultimate responsibility that Building Regs are complied with, not the contractor.

We sold our house in 2018. There's a signed legal document, which amongst other things, asks if you've had any electrical work carried out on the property since 2005. If so it asks you to provide certification, which includes compliance certificate if applicable. The home owner can of course lie, but it is a signed legal document.

If notification is not carried out, thats none compliance with Building Regs, which may put off prospective buyers, it might not. As some said, you can buy Indemnity Insurance in such cases. However, Indemnity Insurance, only covers you from legal action from a Building Control, it doesn't actually cover you from putting things right. There is a time limit on prosecution by BC, I believe.

Building Regs are Statutory, and can result in a criminal prosecution, if they are not complied with. Are there many public cases of BC taking people to Court for non compliance with Part P? I've not heard of any. But it is the law, any with anything such as, break it and you have to face the consequences. As said, not a good business model.

 

[partplonker]

Building Regs are Statutory, and can result in a criminal prosecution, if they are not complied with. Are there many public cases of BC taking people to Court for non compliance with Part P?

Googling around, I can only find the odd isolated case here and there where bathroom fitters and builders have been prosecuted, but really not very many considering the legislation is 17 years old.

I did find a stat that said between 2011 and 2013, 72% of English local authorities didn't even attempt to prosecute anyone for non-compliance under Part P and there was only 1 successful prosecution in the whole country. Presumably due to the cost and time involved in prosecuting people. https://www.napit.org.uk/pdf/NAPIT-Campaigns-Infographic-Building-Regulations-Enforcement-Part-P.pdf

It would seem like compliance with Part P is barely enforced. In the cases I did find, it was noted each time how substandard the work was and there were multiple counts of non-compliance for each defendant. So the people who got prosecuted were doing a lot of both non-compliant and dangerous work.

My takeaway is that if you don't do crap work and you don't do much of it, you can probably get away with it! (not that you should of course)

 

[pc1966]

So the people who got prosecuted were doing a lot of both non-compliant and dangerous work.

My takeaway is that if you don't do crap work and you don't do much of it, you can probably get away with it! (not that you should of course)

That kind of covers what is wrong with the whole "Part P" aspect, but also to some small degree that is is working. Sort of!

 

[brianmoooore]

Building Regs are Statutory, and can result in a criminal prosecution, if they are not complied with.

Quite correct,, but failing to apply for planning permission is not an offence.
As long as work is done in full compliance with the building regs, very little is going to happen, especially if four years have passed.

 

[HappyHippyDad]

The home owner has the ultimate responsibility that Building Regs are complied with, not the contractor.

We sold our house in 2018. There's a signed legal document, which amongst other things, asks if you've had any electrical work carried out on the property since 2005. If so it asks you to provide certification, which includes compliance certificate if applicable. The home owner can of course lie, but it is a signed legal document.

If notification is not carried out, thats none compliance with Building Regs, which may put off prospective buyers, it might not. As some said, you can buy Indemnity Insurance in such cases. However, Indemnity Insurance, only covers you from legal action from a Building Control, it doesn't actually cover you from putting things right. There is a time limit on prosecution by BC, I believe.

Building Regs are Statutory, and can result in a criminal prosecution, if they are not complied with. Are there many public cases of BC taking people to Court for non compliance with Part P? I've not heard of any. But it is the law, any with anything such as, break it and you have to face the consequences. As said, not a good business model.

That, is an interesting and informative reply. Thanks Midwest.

 

[partplonker]

That kind of covers what is wrong with the whole "Part P" aspect, but also to some small degree that is is working. Sort of!

I suppose so. I would add that in all cases, the punishment received was a fine of between £3k and £8k depending on how egregious the offence.

The only person I've ever heard of going to prison for dodgy electrical work was that bloke who installed lighting outside his pub and killed a young child (and obviously it was commercial so not Part P anyway). David Savery did a video about it. If I remember right, the lights weren't earthed properly, there was a fault leading them to be live and they were within reach of metal railings and the circuit was fed from an old Wylex fuseboard with no RCD. Besides all that, the pub was a complete deathtrap and this guy had bypassed the meter to put a cherry on top.

 

[Midwest]

Quite correct,, but failing to apply for planning permission is not an offence.
As long as work is done in full compliance with the building regs, very little is going to happen, especially if four years have passed.

I would suggest that failing to comply with Part P (notification etc), is not failing to apply for planning permission. Therefore it would be a criminal offence. Happy to be corrected on that point.

 

[Dustydazzler]

I would suggest that failing to comply with Part P (notification etc), is not failing to apply for planning permission. Therefore it would be a criminal offence. Happy to be corrected on that point.

Boris Johnson and the Conservative Party now call THIS a Wine and Cheese Board Party

 

[LukeD]

I would suggest that failing to comply with Part P (notification etc), is not failing to apply for planning permission. Therefore it would be a criminal offence. Happy to be corrected on that point.

It seems very little is a Criminal offence these days ...no one is Policing the trades.The councils dont want to know . the gas safe people useless . Even British gas dont want to get involved with cowboys fitting boilers. They just turn up and turn the gas off. No follow up from anyone

 

[Midwest]

Boris Johnson and the Conservative Party now call THIS a Wine and Cheese Board Party

You’ve a point there.

 

[nicebutdim]

You’ve a point there.

Asides from being entirely irrelevant to the thread, he actually doesn't.

 

[Midwest]

Asides from being entirely irrelevant to the thread, he actually doesn't.

Oh dear.

 

[Mike Johnson]

I think politics, religion and gender should be kept out of all threads and posts.

 

[UNG]

I think politics, religion and gender should be kept out of all threads and posts.

So how would we describe male and female plugs and sockets then

 

[partplonker]

So how would we describe male and female plugs and sockets then

aren't sockets always female and plugs always male, so the sexy qualifier is redundant?

 

[pc1966]

aren't sockets always female and plugs always male, so the sexy qualifier is redundant?

Not always, as some treat plug as the cable bit and socket as the fixed bit, and either can have pin (male) or receptacle (female) style connections.

Also you get some hermaphrodite connectors as well, but only one I know of (having used them years ago) was the obsolete General Radio type:

GR connector - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

And you get some that can be either the screwed on bit, or the one being screwed on as your fancy takes you, sometimes referred to as "genderless" such as the old-ish (and very expensive) APC7 sort:

APC-7 connector - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[7029 dave]

I still call 20mm couplers "socket"

 

[partplonker]

Not always, as some treat plug as the cable bit and socket as the fixed bit, and either can have pin (male) or receptacle (female) style connections.

Also you get some hermaphrodite connectors as well, but only one I know of (having used them years ago) was the obsolete General Radio type:

GR connector - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

And you get some that can be either the screwed on bit, or the one being screwed on as your fancy takes you, sometimes referred to as "genderless" such as the old-ish (and very expensive) APC7 sort:

APC-7 connector - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Yeah, anything goes in Band I, but I can't think of anything Band II where that isn't the case? Otherwise you'd have a plug with live, touchable pins!

 

[UNG]

I still call 20mm couplers "socket"

Do you use male bushes with them

 

[7029 dave]

Do you use male bushes with them

yup

 

[pc1966]

Yeah, anything goes in Band I, but I can't think of anything Band II where that isn't the case? Otherwise you'd have a plug with live, touchable pins!

All that matters is you can't touch that, as MC Hammer put it. Usually that means the source of power is connected to the female part, and its diameter (and related insulation) is below finger penetrating size.

You could have a male pin with surrounding insulation sheath tube that makes it untouchable, but for mains use you are down to using the usual suspects (country-specific, or the more global IEC & commando style, etc).

 

[pirate]

I can only comment on this from a Scottish perspective, but there are a few things where I will add my groat's-worth:
1. Yes, planning permission ignored and extant for over 4 years and very unlikely any action can follow. However the breach must be open and in plain sight.
2. Building Control is quite different. If the design is correct, then a warrant will be issued, even if PP is not forthcoming.
3. Breach of the Building Warrant, or lack of it, will not be defended by passage of time. However, some local authorities will not object if the breach or lack of a warrant is minor and common in the type of properties concerned. Also, some councils just didn't care in the 1980s building boom, and of course there is always the route of a Letter of Comfort, used a lot in Scotland. However, a contract for sale can be nulled if the buyer is not alerted at contract stage, as a buyer is not obliged to accept a Letter of Comfort or an indemnity policy. However, they will usually accept the latter, but can reject either if they decide not to proceed.
4. None of the above relates to electrical installations which may have been altered through the years.
5. Indemnity policies are a useful tool, but as stated above, they don't cover rectification. Many such policies are almost worthless. The insurers usually need you to contact them first, without enquiring of the local authority beforehand, so as to reduce the likelihood of the LA investigating. This is a judgement call for the solicitors and their clients and is too complicated to go into here.
6. It is very unusual to ask for electrical certificates in house sales here. The replacement of windows is seen as a major problem by some LAs.
7.I had another point to make on this, but it's escaped me!
8. On the subject of the gender of plugs and sockets, I truly feel that anyone being critical of a history of nomenclature needs to find another hobby. I have a power lead on my desk for a classic Hacker radio. The original "hole" or "socket" on the radio has a "centre negative", whereas the replacement external supply has a "centre positive" so I bought a cable which reverses this, so the new power supply works fine. I have labelled it, as is a common term, with "gender bender" to remind me of its purpose. I would stress that I have no problem with people identifying as a different gender, changing gender, being unsure...but i do find it tiresome that I have to sift through all the options on some official forms. If you recently filled in a Passenger Locator Form to re-enter the UK you will have seen an array of options under the "gender" tab. All fair and good. However, if you want to travel to Spain, the same form asks if you are male or female ...that's your choice, no further options. Why? I don't know. I think it's because the authorities need to have a clear line to differentiate between genders in the event they have to contact you re a Covid problem, which, after all, is the primary purpose for the form. I don't think the Spanish are discriminating against anyone, they just need to know that if they are looking for someone who may be infected, they can discount 50% of people purely by a visual. It may also be due to not being familiar with British names. Lesley or Leslie? Robin or Robyn/Robin Lindsay or Linsey or Lindsey, and loads of other unusual names like Brooke Chelsea Shania Tyrone...how do our foreign friends know which gender is normally represented by such forenames? After all, Joan is quite a normal name for a Spanish chap.