Certificate to check earth arrangements.. ?

[Jaxo]

The town I live in has been getting old metallic water pipes replaced with plastic, the water board has issued everyone with letters recommending "that you have your electrical earthing arrangements checked as it is possible, particularly for older properties with metallic service pipes that the pipe is used as a means of earthing for some or all of the electrical installation."

What I`m wondering is what way would you check this and what certificate if any would you issue for checking the earthing arrangements.

Would you simply check the supply's earth or electrode and recommend an EICR if its due or would you check the whole earthing arrangements and issue a certificate.. If so Would you use an EICR and state it covers the earthing arrangements only, a minor works or could you even use use own letterheaded letter to say the earthing arrangements has been checked etc.

Obviously the best thing to do would be a periodic on the whole installation, but Ive been getting a few calls about this with people just wanting the "earth checked".. and I`m just wondering what way others would go about this..

 

[trev]

I think I'd arrange an EICR with limitations on everything except the Ze and earthing arrangement.

 

[Farmelectrics]

Well you could do a ze test for starters

 

[trev]

Well you could do a ze test for starters

I think the question was more along the lines of how would you put it down on a cert though.

 

[Farmelectrics]

Ok trev read the question properly lol

 

[trev]

Yes, I see it now

 

[Jaxo]

Well you could do a ze test for starters

Really, thats a good idea... there was me with a set of christmas tree lights connecting them between the main fuse and earth to see if they light up.. where can i buy a zetester then lol?

 

[Jaxo]

also I think I would start by agreeing to do the job... dont how i could manage to jump from a phone call to be doing a ze test in someones house lol.. rrr:

 

[ferg]

I think I'd arrange an EICR with limitations on everything except the Ze and earthing arrangement.

If certification was necessary then this is good but do you really need to issue a cert for checking the earthing arrangement?

 

[trev]

If certification was necessary then this is good but do you really need to issue a cert for checking the earthing arrangement?

Of course not but why not issue a proper report in the EICR format? It's less likely to get put away in that special safe place that no one ever finds again

 

[Jaxo]

If certification was necessary then this is good but do you really need to issue a cert for checking the earthing arrangement?

Im unsure if its actually needed or not.. filling 8 pages for a earth loop test seems a bit off putting. Basically what Ive thought of doing is a ze test to see if the installation relies on the water pipes for its earth and if changing the pipe is going to effect their current arrangement, check bonding and advice on any probs and recommend a full eicr.. would this be enough though

 

[trev]

Ok then, do it by letter/email. Go along, check the Ze then stick it in writing.
No 8 pages and the client gets what he/she wanted to know, you get some money and everyone's happy.

 

[Jaxo]

but why not issue a proper report in the EICR format?

TBH, Its a time thing.. There might be 000`s to do, thats a lot of EICRs to fill out

 

[trev]

Dear Mr/Mrs client
I write to confirm the earthing arrangement is TT/TN-S/TN-C-S (ddelete as appropriate and the external earth loop impedance reading is X.
Now giz ya cheque!
lots of love
Jaxo


there you go, job done

 

[ferg]

TBH, Its a time thing.. There might be 000`s to do, thats a lot of EICRs to fill out

Sadly I'm almost certain that most of those letters will be filed in the round filing cabinet

 

[Engineer54]

Just a thought here....

I'm sure one of you clever buggers with the right program can knock up a decent enough looking Earthing and Bonding certificate with appropriate statements and showing tests conducted and the values obtained. It's no good just conducting a Ze test, it'll need to show Ze, Zs (Zdb), and main Bonding tests, where applicable.

It could then be put in the Sticky's for anyone to use as and when needed....

 

[NickD]

Unless I'm missing something here...if you inspect the DNO's supply head and it's TNS or TNCS, then means of earthing is via the cable (either sheath/whatever, something not your problem anyway, or a PEN conductor) and adequate means of earthing is part of the DNO's responsibility - and it's difficult to see how they would have relied on pipework for that anyhow, please tell me they wouldn't have ever relied on nearby pipework for the PME earth points?

If you inspect and it's TT then visually satisfy yourself that it's a pukka rod, then again you would have thought that pipes changing to plastic would be neither here nor there. If it's a pipe, then yeah, there's a concern.

Agreed that the obvious answer would be to do a Ze test at the origin seeing as you're at the property anyway, and my initial inclination would be to write it up on a minor works form, call the minor work "Testing of means of earthing at client's request". Just my 2p's.

 

[Engineer54]

Unless I'm missing something here...if you inspect the DNO's supply head and it's TNS or TNCS, then means of earthing is via the cable (either sheath/whatever, something not your problem anyway, or a PEN conductor) and adequate means of earthing is part of the DNO's responsibility - and it's difficult to see how they would have relied on pipework for that anyhow, please tell me they wouldn't have ever relied on nearby pipework for the PME earth points?

If you inspect and it's TT then visually satisfy yourself that it's a pukka rod, then again you would have thought that pipes changing to plastic would be neither here nor there. If it's a pipe, then yeah, there's a concern.

Agreed that the obvious answer would be to do a Ze test at the origin seeing as you're at the property anyway, and my initial inclination would be to write it up on a minor works form, call the minor work "Testing of means of earthing at client's request". Just my 2p's.

I think the OP is talking about the very old properties that at that time, were often using the main water pipe as the installation earth. And yes they DO still exist, although agueably diminishing rapidly as those older properties are being rewired etc....

An installations earthing point is ''Only'' the DNO's responsibility, IF and ony if an earthing provision was origionally provided by the DNO or earlier Regional electricity boards, otherwise it's the property owners responsibility!!

 

[NickD]

I think the OP is talking about the very old properties that at that time, were often using the main water pipe as the installation earth. And yes they DO still exist, although agueably diminishing rapidly as those older properties are being rewired etc....

That's my point. I can't believe that many clients will be phoning up saying "Yeah my means of earthing is the water pipe so I need your help". Isn't it the case that if you visually check and the system is TNS, TNCS, or TT via pukka earth rod, it's very difficult to see how this move to plastic pipes can affect anything?

An installations earthing point is ''Only'' the DNO's responsibility, IF and ony if an earthing provision was origionally provided by the DNO or earlier Regional electricity boards, otherwise it's the property owners responsibility!!

Again that's my point, if means of earthing comes up the cable a la TNS or TNCS then it's the DNO's responsibility/problem, right?

 

[NJG28]

Agreed that the obvious answer would be to do a Ze test at the origin seeing as you're at the property anyway, and my initial inclination would be to write it up on a minor works form, call the minor work "Testing of means of earthing at client's request". Just my 2p's.

Surely MWC is inappropriate as you haven't designed or installed owt. The only cert applicable would be EICR limited to eathing /bonding.
Not that I would issue cert in these circs unless client insisted (unlikely).
Simple record on invoice would do surely ?

 

[NickD]

Surely MWC is inappropriate as you haven't designed or installed owt.

There's nothing on the MWC itself that says that the 'works' have to be a modification. I am conscious however of BS7671 631.3: Where minor electrical *installation* work does not include the provision of a new circuit, a MWC...may be provided for each circuit *altered or extended*.... However, with the bit of my brain that nearly ended up as a lawyer engaged, I note it doesn't say that's the *only* thing you can ever use an MWC for.

 

[Engineer54]

That's my point. I can't believe that many clients will be phoning up saying "Yeah my means of earthing is the water pipe so I need your help". Isn't it the case that if you visually check and the system is TNS, TNCS, or TT via pukka earth rod, it's very difficult to see how this move to plastic pipes can affect anything?



Again that's my point, if means of earthing comes up the cable a la TNS or TNCS then it's the DNO's responsibility/problem, right?

The OP is talking about a warning circular that the water company is distributing in areas where they are replacing existin metal water pipes for plastic. How many non electrical home owners would have a clue what to look for as far as earthing arrangement are concerned. Hell, there are plenty of threads on this forum where supposidly competent persons can't distingquish between TN-S and TNC-S/PME at the service head, so what chance does Mr Office worker, Salesman, etc stand of identifying an earthing system??

 

[NickD]

The OP is talking about a warning circular that the water company is distributing in areas where they are replacing existin metal water pipes for plastic. How many non electrical home owners would have a clue what to look for as far as earthing arrangement are concerned.

The point I was suggesting was that the *competent person* when visiting can check and just from seeing that it is TNS or TNCS be confident that the metal->plastic pipe changes a) should have no effect on the means of earthing of the property and b) be the DNO's responsibility even if somehow perversely they did. Or if it is TT to a pukka earth rod, still be confident that changes to the earthing of the property should be negligible. And then test Ze at origin to confirm. Yes?

 

[Richard Burns]

Just a thought here....

I'm sure one of you clever buggers with the right program can knock up a decent enough looking Earthing and Bonding certificate with appropriate statements and showing tests conducted and the values obtained. It's no good just conducting a Ze test, it'll need to show Ze, Zs (Zdb), and main Bonding tests, where applicable.

It could then be put in the Sticky's for anyone to use as and when needed....

Just for you!! or anyone else who wants a fabricated piece of paper!

View attachment Earthing Inspection Certificate.pdf

 

[Badged01]

Just for you!! or anyone else who wants a fabricated piece of paper!

A man after my own heart! A process/procedure followed by a piece of paperwork to fill in and file :tounge_smile:

 

[wozz]

Heard from dno workers this is a problem they do come across. Personally I'd use a mwc and write what I've done and tested I really can't see the problem it's conveying the info it needs to, pages and pages of a eicr with na everywhere seems point less.

Good to see a utility company is taking some steps to protect its customers from the problems that can arise from their works.

 

[Pete999]

I think the OP is talking about the very old properties that at that time, were often using the main water pipe as the installation earth. And yes they DO still exist, although agueably diminishing rapidly as those older properties are being rewired etc....

An installations earthing point is ''Only'' the DNO's responsibility, IF and ony if an earthing provision was origionally provided by the DNO or earlier Regional electricity boards, otherwise it's the property owners responsibility!!

Agree with you mate

 

[telectrix]

Just for you!! or anyone else who wants a fabricated piece of paper!

View attachment 23545

downloaded and filed. cheers, richard.

 

[Octopus]

Last time I came across this was with a worried lady in her 80's. I went and tested the Ze before the water board came along and did the same after - the result was the same as it was a TNS.

I didn't charge, nor give any paperwork.

 

[telectrix]

Last time I came across this was with a worried lady in her 80's. I went and tested the Ze before the water board came along and did the same after - the result was the same as it was a TNS.

I didn't charge, nor give any paperwork.

your contact details are being forwarded to help the aged. :21:

 

[Engineer54]

Just for you!! or anyone else who wants a fabricated piece of paper!

View attachment 23545

Not for me, i don't need one but handy for others if and when they may need one. I basically fabricate ALL test report sheets and final test certificates for my projects. But nowadays, i basically just use the templates from other project i've worked on and just tweak them as required....


But you're fabricated earthing inspection certificate should be more than ample to fulfill/cover the OP's above situation....

 

[Knobhead]

Not for me, i don't need one but handy for others if and when they may need one. I basically fabricate ALL test report sheets and final test certificates for my projects. But nowadays, i basically just use the templates from other project i've worked on and just tweak them as required....


But you're fabricated earthing inspection certificate should be more than ample to fulfill/cover the OP's above situation....

If I was rotten I could read that several ways E54.

With test results I’d just check up on a sample out of a batch. Some used to tickle me, flagged up as “low IR”. A cable X00’s of metres long and they’ve just dabbed the test button for a couple of seconds. Even funnier was the idiot that removed the test leads before the cable discharged, everyone on site must have heard him squeal when he touched the cable.
All the records were on paper then, I was drowning in the stuff.

Important stuff was checked through.

 

[Badged01]

.... If I was rotten I could read that several ways ...

I hadn't even thought that on first read but you're right! Dont like the figure so I'll fabricate ones that I do ..... although I'm sure thats not what is meant!

 

[Engineer54]

If I was rotten I could read that several ways E54.

Haha, Yes i suppose it could well be taken the wrong way... lol!!

 

[NickD]

Last time I came across this was with a worried lady in her 80's. I went and tested the Ze before the water board came along and did the same after - the result was the same as it was a TNS.

I didn't charge, nor give any paperwork.

Building up trust for when you tell her she needs a rewire, surge arrest and lightning protection. Like it.

 

[AndyL]

Im unsure if its actually needed or not.. filling 8 pages for a earth loop test seems a bit off putting. Basically what Ive thought of doing is a ze test to see if the installation relies on the water pipes for its earth and if changing the pipe is going to effect their current arrangement, check bonding and advice on any probs and recommend a full eicr.. would this be enough though

Issue just the EICR(only 2 pages) without the usual schedules of inspection and test results.
Detail the extent covered in section D so there is no confusion

 

[Octopus]

Building up trust for when you tell her she needs a rewire, surge arrest and lightning protection. Like it.

Maybe, maybe not BUT when you do such a task when you driving past the end of the road, asking for my minimum charge seems more than a little OTT.

 

[NickD]

Maybe, maybe not BUT when you do such a task when you driving past the end of the road, asking for my minimum charge seems more than a little OTT.

I don't buy this poor little old lady argument as well. Remember Eva Braun would have ended up as a little old lady if she'd lasted that long.