Could anyone please settle an argument?

[Palmer Riley]

What is the difference between the 2 RCD sockets pictured? Are they both indoor? Is one indoor and the other outdoor? I have put the manufacturer and model number for them below.

Picture 1 - LGA Selectric SP-RCD2GS
Picture 2 - CED WRCDSSK2

Many thanks in advance.

 

[Marvo]

They both look decidedly indoor to me. What's their IP ratings?

 

[Darkwood]

both standard indoor .... no IP rated outdoor protection in site... unless you put it in a suitable IP enclosure some are designed to fit with flex seals over the plug leads.

 

[Marvo]

Maybe I'm missing something here. You say you want the info to settle an argument but Palmer Riley are distributors of these products so I'd expect you to be able to answer some arbitrary question about whether the products you sell are suitable for indoor/outdoor use.

What do you normally do when a customer asks this type of question about one of your products?....and please don't say you log onto the nearest electrical forum and post a question

 

[Palmer Riley]

Not the master of disguise I thought I was!

Sorry, I just wanted someone independent to confirm this for me and then be able to provide a link for this to be viewed. What has happened is that a client purchased the CED socket but we sent the LGA socket. Apologies and an offer of a 50% refund were made. He insisted though that the CED socket was an outdoor version and as such the one we sent would not do. What I think has happened is the socket he is changing was the CED standard socket in a weatherproof enclosure but he is refusing to accept this. I have since refunded him in full and sent him a returns envelope.

 

[ipf]

Maybe I'm missing something here. You say you want the info to settle an argument but Palmer Riley are distributors of these products so I'd expect you to be able to answer some arbitrary question about whether the products you sell are suitable for indoor/outdoor use.

What do you normally do when a customer asks this type of question about one of your products?....and please don't say you log onto the nearest electrical forum and post a question

Tut, tut........stall on the outside market would suit.

 

[Pete999]

Both indoor are you blind

 

[Marvo]

Not the master of disguise I thought I was!

Lol, you're absolutely terrible. Any self respecting master of disguise at least uses a false name.

Don't worry you're not alone, I caught someone from another wholesaler, yesss another one last month attempting to pull a fast one and I've caught most major wholesalers trying their luck one way or another. At least you didn't post your advertising links or bad-mouth the competition.

You're welcome to hang around the forum and address product questions or concerns or even seek advice but please no direct advertising and links etc.

Thanks

In answer to you question it's the enclosure that would dictate the IP rating of a socket so you could sell either item you've shown as completely submersible as long as it was sold with an enclosure that was IP 68. Without an enclosure both items would be IP22 I would guess unless they state otherwise in the instructions so only suitable for indoor use.

 

[Darkwood]

rather than trying to look up the sockets for a indoor/outdoor tag you should look up the definitions of IP rating levels and you will see as stand alone units they cant comply for outdoor use unless in a suitable enclosure ... if rain or any other water source got onto a plug in this unit it could make the cover live with rcd protection or worse seap inside and bridge to the unprotected live parts.

 

[Palmer Riley]

You're welcome to hang around the forum and address product questions or concerns or even seek advice but please no direct advertising and links etc.

Thanks

Thank you, I will. I spent a good hour or so reading some threads with great interest. It gives us a good in-sight into what people like and more so what they don't. I can assure you I would never blatantly plug our products. We do a good range of weatherproof RCD sockets though...

 

[ipf]

rather than trying to look up the sockets for a indoor/outdoor tag you should look up the definitions of IP rating levels and you will see as stand alone units they cant comply for outdoor use unless in a suitable enclosure ... if rain or any other water source got onto a plug in this unit it could make the cover live with rcd protection or worse seap inside and bridge to the unprotected live parts.

Could try relieving himself on them......inside or out.

 

[GMES]

I am having a blonde moment Marvo help me out mate what is the crack with this thread and who is the op and is he a supplier, just a bit confused????
If I am reading right, the op is a supplier and come on here to ask a question about his own product, using the company name trying to disguise himself.
If this is true then the only advice I can offer the op is, Don't ever start a life of crime or try to become a spy!!!!

 

[Octopus]

This sounds a bit like advertising to me!

 

[Palmer Riley]

This sounds a bit like advertising to me!

Not at all! As I stated earlier, I just wanted to have my point proven by some industry experts. My intention was to send him a link to the thread so he could see that I was right with what I had told him. I was never in any doubt as to what the correct answer was, I just wanted this confirmed by professional electricians. I don't think I will do that though now as it will probably only inflame the situation. Some of the replies were are fairly blunt and to the point that infers only someone simple would need to ask for clarification.

It is always here though in case he sends me an email as insulting as he did this morning though!

 

[telectrix]

welcome to the world of arsehole customers. we sparks get them all the time.

 

[Palmer Riley]

welcome to the world of arsehole customers. we sparks get them all the time.

I need a 'LOVE IT' button for that!

 

[GMES]

Just hit the thank button , it will make his day, he's a bit vain like that,just don't tell him I said that

 

[mayfair]

wire it up to a bit of 3 core with a plug on and put it outside in the rain or chuck it in a bucket...........Its a joke

 

[Marvo]

I am having a blonde moment Marvo help me out mate what is the crack with this thread and who is the op and is he a supplier, just a bit confused????
If I am reading right, the op is a supplier and come on here to ask a question about his own product, using the company name trying to disguise himself.
If this is true then the only advice I can offer the op is, Don't ever start a life of crime or try to become a spy!!!!

Yeah, I was also a bit confused. The usual rogue suppliers we get who post their advertising links or give their one-sided opinions on products or on other suppliers usually do so underhandedly using an assumed name. I usually catch them by running IP lookup's etc and they get banned or I drag their name through the mud as soon as they're discovered.

The OP is a supplier but isn't using an assumed name and hopefully didn't come with a hidden agenda, like I said he's welcome to stay and contribute if he likes.

I don't have an issue with suppliers who aren't forum sponsors as long as they're up-front about who they are and as long as they respect the forum advertising rules, they can be a useful source of product info for other forum members and I'm sure the info and opinions voiced on the forum can be of use to them.

 

[uksparks]

I think I mentioned this before but my local eddies, they are great but once I went in and asked for a dimplex bathroom down flow heater, and they sold me a dimplex down flow heater that was IP2X, so not exactly suitable, I didn't realise till I got home, I took it back and ordered an ip rated version, admittedly it looked identical on the outside. But the point to the story was that they advise people to buy the wrong products due to lack of knowledge and understanding, which is similar to this as someone doesn't know if it's weatherproof or not.

 

[Marvo]

I think it depends on the supplier and whether he's a wholesaler or a retailer. If he's a wholesaler he should be able to provide product specifications upon request so the customer can make an informed decision, if he's retailing then wet-nursing the customers comes with the territory. Likewise a wholesaler should be offering far better prices and selling in volume because his customers are trade and should know what they want and how to install it correctly, retailers are more likely to get after-sales complaints and queries and even failed product returns because of customer ignorance and their higher list price would cover this.

 

[Palmer Riley]

I think I mentioned this before but my local eddies, they are great but once I went in and asked for a dimplex bathroom down flow heater, and they sold me a dimplex down flow heater that was IP2X, so not exactly suitable, I didn't realise till I got home, I took it back and ordered an ip rated version, admittedly it looked identical on the outside. But the point to the story was that they advise people to buy the wrong products due to lack of knowledge and understanding, which is similar to this as someone doesn't know if it's weatherproof or not.

With respect, if you read all of my posts I knew the answer to the question. My ulterior motive was to have professional tradesmen confirm what I had told the client was correct. As a side note, he has actually seen this thread whilst doing some digging online today and has just sent me an amusing email and signed it 'Arsehole customer' so full marks have to be give to him in the sense of humour stakes!

 

[stevey1983]

Customer is always right. End of argument

 

[NDG Elecs]

Yep UK, I have had to explain things in Eddys too such as what class two double insulated means. Which I don't mind doing to some whipper snapper, but on that occasion the Eddys lad was an old hand.

To the OP, any leccy should be able to tell that ain't suitable for outside with hardly a sideways glance, so your customer is beyond stupid. That's you yes you if you are reading this! We all have our moments I guess.


Nice one Stevey, haha!

 

[Gavin A]

Customer is always right. End of argument

not in my experience.

Customer is usually in need of expert guidance before landing on the right answer to the problem at hand.

 

[A-hole customer]

With respect, if you read all of my posts I knew the answer to the question. My ulterior motive was to have professional tradesmen confirm what I had told the client was correct. As a side note, he has actually seen this thread whilst doing some digging online today and has just sent me an amusing email and signed it 'Arsehole customer' so full marks have to be give to him in the sense of humour stakes!

Hi All,

I a newbie to the forum and also I am said "arsehole customer"

OK lets put this thread to bed.

I ordered part number WRCDSSK2 and was sent part number SP-RCD2GS. I noticed straight away that there was a difference in the 2 units and the part I ordered has 3 BS numbers where as the part I received only has 2. And lets be honest, when you order a certain part number you expect that part or one completely IDENTICAL.
I rang up The OP to discuss that these were different parts (i must point out it was early morning and not had much sleep) and basically I was suggestion that wrcdssk2, because of the extra BS rating, was somehow more suitable for outdoor use. The OP stated they were exactly the same product and consequently quite a heated argument ensued.

One thing led to another and although the OP tried to calm me down with a half refund, I demanded a full refund and the product to be picked up by supplier to be returned, because I had lost faith in them really knowing what they were selling. In defense of the OP i had a full refund within a matter of hours and a return envelope was sent.

I was asked to photograph the backs of both units to show OP what the differences were but was unable to do this. So I had a look online to try and find photos but instead found this thread.

OK, now on further inspection I noticed that the 2 units have different dimensional specs. The plug sockets are located in different parts of the front plate. This meant that the plugs didnt line up with the housing which came originally with the part wrcdssk2.

So, although I was initially arguing the wrong point, outdoor use. ( I am no sparky and have never claimed to be) I was still right in the fact that the parts are different hence the different part numbers and British Standard numbers.

At the end of the day both myself and the OP have learned something, laughed it off and got on with our day. And I respected the fact that he tried to do some research (even though i feel it was fueled to prove himself right) but It still leaves me without a WRCDSSK2 and being a bank holiday I am screwed til tuesday!!. The part needed is for power to a polytunnel and basically my life is becoming a nightmare without it.

Anyways. Apologies to OP for being an arsehole but I think he understands why I was and has learned not to list items with part numbers they dont have. I would also suggest to use photos of the right part too.

Anyways, Ill get over it, lets just hope the plants do.

Happy Bank Hols Peeps!!

Jez

 

[A-hole customer]

To the OP, any leccy should be able to tell that ain't suitable for outside with hardly a sideways glance, so your customer is beyond stupid. That's you yes you if you are reading this! We all have our moments I guess.

Hi All I am the said "arsehole customer" and, although I can deal with being an arsehole, i refuse to be called beyond stupid

OK, it was early in the morning after not much sleep and after receiving the wrong part number to what I ordered (wrcdssk2) and basically the backs of the units look different and the unit I order has 3 British standard numbers and the part I received only 2. I assumed (I know....the mother of all. But I am no sparky) that the extra BS number was due to some sort of outdoor rating. I was wrong, on that front. BUT in hindsight, the 2 parts are different spec. The plugs sockets are located in different locations meaning that it won't line up with the housing.

The argument between me and the OP really kicked off because they sell both the item I ordered and the item I received. Both of which have their respective part numbers and a difference in price (you guessed it. I got the cheaper one) and I still received the wrong part. My point was they were different and I was basically being treated as being stupid and they are identical but from different manufacturers. They are not IDENTICAL!!! so a HARSH not RUDE email was sent.

But I have been refunded very quickly and a return envelope is on its way so the OP has done his part and I respect that.

The problem is its Bank Holiday and I am still left without a WRCDSSK2 which is for power in the poly tunnel. Although I can wait for tuesday to find the infamous socket, I am not so sure the plants will love me for it. Hence my pain.

This is the second time, different company, I have had problems with suppliers not knowing all the facts about what the are selling, which is worrying when it comes to electrics. This was another reason for refusal to budge from a full refund and item to be picked up. Like I have stated I am no leccy, and I used to trust suppliers to have the knowledge I don't (notice the past tense there) But If the right part number was sent there would have never been a problem.

Anyhow, hope that puts this ordeal to bed

ATB all and have a great Bank Holiday!!

A-hole
AKA Jez

 

[plugsandsparks]

Customer is always right. End of argument

The customer is always the customer..... often need a nudge or two to be "right"

 

[GMES]

If you are not an Electrician as you say, then why are you fitting sockets!!!

 

[shanky887614]

if it is to replace the front then usually a picture is the best way to stop any problems arising.

along with part number

 

[telectrix]

" what we have here is a lack of communication" ( prison governor to paul newman, cool hand luke )

 

[Marvo]

Hi All,

I a newbie to the forum and also I am said "arsehole customer"

It wasn't me who called you an a-hole....honest

I ordered part number WRCDSSK2 and was sent part number SP-RCD2GS. I noticed straight away that there was a difference in the 2 units and the part I ordered has 3 BS numbers where as the part I received only has 2.

The thing with BS numbers and ISO numbers for that matter is you've got to know which standard they're referring to for them to mean anything. Manufacturers usually stamp their products with the most relevant ones but there's no reason a product can't have dozens of BS numbers stamped on it but they tend to get meaningless. For example there's a BS that refers to the dimensions of the plug/socket pins and how they're arranged but there's also a BS for the amount of recycled plastic being used in the product. Most manufacturers would indicate the first one but omit to stamp it with the second one because the vast majority of customers wouldn't see it as being relevant to making their purchase choice. What I'm trying to illustrate is that the number of BS stamps on a product isn't necessarily relevant, the thing that indicates suitability for outdoor use is the IP rating.

OK, now on further inspection I noticed that the 2 units have different dimensional specs. The plug sockets are located in different parts of the front plate. This meant that the plugs didnt line up with the housing which came originally with the part wrcdssk2.

The outer dimensions probably aren't covered by any of the BS numbers stamped on the products.

This is the second time, different company, I have had problems with suppliers not knowing all the facts about what the are selling, which is worrying when it comes to electrics.

Suppliers will never know all the facts about their products, I'd expect an electrical supplier to know the electrical facts, IP ratings and temperature ratings but they're never going to know things like whether they fit precisely in different enclosures or back-boxes same as they won't know the exact colour or whether the thing is made from ABS or PVC for example.

I think the problem is just lack of understanding and communication by both parties. I don't think the supplier was incorrect to tell you that these products are essentially the same item because to most intents and purposes and electrically speaking they are. I also don't think your concerns about the differing dimensions and certifications are misplaced either, I guess the more important thing is that fact that it's resolvable without the relationship breaking down.

 

[shanky887614]

the other thing about electrical wholesalers is as long as the product isnt rendered unsellable by the buyer then they will usually swap the item no questions asked.

 

[Palmer Riley]

the other thing about electrical wholesalers is as long as the product isnt rendered unsellable by the buyer then they will usually swap the item no questions asked.

Selling online you are bound by 'Distance selling regulations' and you have to accept returns upto 14 days after the date of sale. We have a 30 day policy but I know eBay have an option for 60 days!

 

[shanky887614]

Selling online you are bound by 'Distance selling regulations' and you have to accept returns upto 14 days after the date of sale. We have a 30 day policy but I know eBay have an option for 60 days!

yes but if the buyer has broken the item then it is not covered under the distance selling regulations.

if you knock a glass off a table and it shatters and try to get your money back through the distance selling regulations you will be laughed at

 

[Palmer Riley]

yes but if the buyer has broken the item then it is not covered under the distance selling regulations.

if you knock a glass off a table and it shatters and try to get your money back through the distance selling regulations you will be laughed at

You'd be amazed with what we get sent back!

 

[A-hole customer]

If you are not an Electrician as you say, then why are you fitting sockets!!!

Its changing an outdoor socket (inside polytunnel) from a (2.5mm arctic blue cable I believe) extension cable than runs from an internal plug with an extra RCD on it. Its all unplugged and its 2 screws and 3 wires. I ordered the exact same part I was replacing. Where's the problem??

When I say Im not an electrician, Im not one, its not my trade, but I know how to wire a plug

 

[A-hole customer]

You'd be amazed with what we get sent back!

Amazed, eh. I can't wait to get this returns envelope

In all seriousness. I was wrong with my argument but its turned out the part is slightly different so not appropriate for use anyhow. It all would have turned out the same, minus the slightly heated argument haha.

No hard feelings just try not to laugh at your customers on the phone. You never know, you may get some arsehole thats had little sleep and a stressful week and he may feel slightly belittled

ATB

 

[telectrix]

Amazed, eh. I can't wait to get this returns envelope

In all seriousness. I was wrong with my argument but its turned out the part is slightly different so not appropriate for use anyhow. It all would have turned out the same, minus the slightly heated argument haha.

No hard feelings just try not to laugh at your customers on the phone. You never know, you may get some arsehole thats had little sleep and a stressful week and he may feel slightly belittled

ATB

having read that. i assume the arctic cable is fitted with a plug. in which case an extension socket ( same as you get on an extension lead, 2 way or 4 way) could be fitted to the arctic cable and enclosed in a weatherproof box. loike this:

 

[Knobhead]

Oh Dear.

We're not a call centre, we are real people based in our ************ office who are full of knowledge about our products and would be delighted to help you.

 

[Palmer Riley]

Oh Dear.

We're not a call centre, we are real people based in our ************ office who are full of knowledge about our products and would be delighted to help you.

Again, with the greatest respect you have not read all of the thread. I knew the answer to the original question, I wanted it to be confirmed independently. The mistake we made was that we sent out the wrong manufacturer of the correct part.

 

[A-hole customer]

Again, with the greatest respect you have not read all of the thread. I knew the answer to the original question, I wanted it to be confirmed independently. The mistake we made was that we sent out the wrong manufacturer of the correct part.

They do the same thing, but they are not the same part. The plug sockets are located in different places. Meaning if someone needs the crappy wrcdssk2 he will need to spend all day tracking one down, eventually finding one in scotland!!.

Can anyone answer why the bloody hell did they (can i mention the manufacturer on here, sure you know who) decide to be the only socket manufacturer to put the sockets slightly under the screws, when all the other specs are identical!? did they have a bad day last thing on friday and then think "oh....that'll do". And is the wrcdssk2 becoming obselete??

Anyway. I be glad to get this situation over with TBH.

Apologies to the OP for any grievances caused. Hope you recorded the phone call for training purposes

 

[Palmer Riley]

They do the same thing, but they are not the same part. The plug sockets are located in different places. Meaning if someone needs the crappy wrcdssk2 he will need to spend all day tracking one down, eventually finding one in scotland!!.

Can anyone answer why the bloody hell did they (can i mention the manufacturer on here, sure you know who) decide to be the only socket manufacturer to put the sockets slightly under the screws, when all the other specs are identical!? did they have a bad day last thing on friday and then think "oh....that'll do". And is the wrcdssk2 becoming obselete??

Anyway. I be glad to get this situation over with TBH.

Apologies to the OP for any grievances caused. Hope you recorded the phone call for training purposes

Would you be able to send me a photo of the enclosure that it needs to go into?

 

[A-hole customer]

Would you be able to send me a photo of the enclosure that it needs to go into?

Im sorry I cant ATM. left the phone out in the rain last week so using the old one. That was my only means of taking a photo. Same reason didnt send one of the back of the unit, which is slightly different but in appearance only it seems.

Basically if you look at the pics you posted at the start of this thread, you will see the sockets are slightly under the screws on the wrcdssk2. The housing I have corresponds to this layout. Which means any other socket with a normal layout wont allow the housing to close, rendering the whole thing useless.

I am starting to wish I just brought a whole new housing etc. would have saved me a lot of time and money. Oh well. c'est la vie.

 

[Marvo]

This is obviously where the problem is, the original socket and backbox were manufactured as a matched pair and not designed to accommodate other sockets of similar form factor. It's not unusual, manufacturers do it to encourage you to purchase their sockets in future because they know the back-box is often mounted in the wall and is difficult to replace.

 

[Palmer Riley]

Im sorry I cant ATM. left the phone out in the rain last week so using the old one. That was my only means of taking a photo. Same reason didnt send one of the back of the unit, which is slightly different but in appearance only it seems.

Basically if you look at the pics you posted at the start of this thread, you will see the sockets are slightly under the screws on the wrcdssk2. The housing I have corresponds to this layout. Which means any other socket with a normal layout wont allow the housing to close, rendering the whole thing useless.

I am starting to wish I just brought a whole new housing etc. would have saved me a lot of time and money. Oh well. c'est la vie.

Is it similar to this enclosure?

IP65 WEATHERPROOF GARDEN HEAVY DUTY 13A DOUBLE SWITCHED SOCKET WITH NEONS SS65-D

Have you now sourced the offending socket?

 

[davesparks]

Its changing an outdoor socket (inside polytunnel) from a (2.5mm arctic blue cable I believe) extension cable than runs from an internal plug with an extra RCD on it. Its all unplugged and its 2 screws and 3 wires. I ordered the exact same part I was replacing. Where's the problem??

When I say Im not an electrician, Im not one, its not my trade, but I know how to wire a plug

Don't forget the ferrules for the end of the flex.

And of course to carry out the correct tests after you have fitted the new socket, especially the correct RCD test. RCD's are notoriously unreliable, especially those cheap socket ones, and unless it is tested properly to prove that it trips in time to save someone life if the worst should happen you had better assume it won't work.

You are quite right it is only 3 wires, but it only takes one of them to kill a healthy adult!

 

[Knobhead]

Is he still getting free advertising?

 

[A-hole customer]

Don't forget the ferrules for the end of the flex.

And of course to carry out the correct tests after you have fitted the new socket, especially the correct RCD test. RCD's are notoriously unreliable, especially those cheap socket ones, and unless it is tested properly to prove that it trips in time to save someone life if the worst should happen you had better assume it won't work.

You are quite right it is only 3 wires, but it only takes one of them to kill a healthy adult!

I do have a healthy respect for electricity, as I do for people warning others of the dangers. Thanks.

I have already put ferrules on. Its been running for over a year. Im just replacing the socket like for like.

 

[A-hole customer]

Is it similar to this enclosure?

IP65 WEATHERPROOF GARDEN HEAVY DUTY 13A DOUBLE SWITCHED SOCKET WITH NEONS SS65-D

Have you now sourced the offending socket?

Pretty much the same as far as I can see. I expect the wire holes are in a slightly different place, but yeah. thats it.

As I mentioned, I managed to source the infamous wrcdssk2 from Scotland.

And that suspiciously looks like a link there. tut!