Customer not paying, feel like I’m getting the run around

[Sookme]

Hi all, biting my tongue here!

Have recently gone self employed in January, so cashflow is critical right now.

I done some work for a lady, agreed an hourly rate which she was happy with as it worked out almost £180 cheaper than job price she had been quoted elsewhere. Originally she wanted 2 x up lighters fitted, 5 switch/socket faceplates changed.

When I arrived it turned in to 24 switch/socket plates, 2 up lighter installed, 2 up lighters not working, 1 socket not working, 1 intermediate circuit not working (she had attempted to change them all herself and mixed cables up). Also for good will she removed the door lock and couldn’t fit the new one so done that too. Agreed it was more than she enquired and estimated , that she was happy to pay the hourly rate to complete all requested work.

She was very happy and complimented how hard I worked, asked me to invoice and she will pay the following day. She wanted invoiced to her company to pay as an expense, which I did but put her name and home details on where work was carried out. I stated on invoice payable on receipt.

She rang me the following day saying she’s ordered loads of new smart gear can I fit, I said yes once invoice is paid we will arrange a date. It wasn’t paid that day, email reminder and text she replied will pay by the end of today, still nothing so I text again and she said I was going to pay all at once you complete the next lot of work. Once again I explained invoice cleared first before we arrange further work. Now had 5 agreed “payment by the end of the day” and nothing. I told her if there’s any problems let me know, she’s said no I will pay today.

It’s now 30 days overdue and I feel she has no intention of paying, also not heard anything from her since. Probably moved on to someone else to not pay.

Is the best course of action to just send her a final reminder by email and post with 7 days to pay before I submit it to small claims court? Do I submit to a sole trader as invoiced (her company) or individual? Can I claim late compensation and interest?

Thanks

 

[NateCreekside]

Unfortunately sounds like one of those times you're going to have to threaten small claims. Have you ever been self employed before this year? Always good to get a specific specification of work in writing before the start - sounds like a lot of verbal agreements going on here

 

[JBW175]

I’d try giving her a phone call first and ask her what the problem is. If there’s no movement and she doesn’t pay up, you’ve got no option but to threaten small claims court.

If she does pay up, I’d take my money and run, don’t need customers like that.

I don’t know what your policy is, but in normally hold off issuing any certification until the bills paid, it’s stated on my T&C’s along with any materials provided remain property of etc… until bills paid.

 

[timhoward]

I'd be inclined to:
1) Register with MCOL - Money Claim Online - Welcome - https://www.moneyclaim.gov.uk/ today so you can instantly follow up if required to without further delay.
2) Send written letter, recorded delivery. (This is adapted from one I had to write which was supplied to me by a solicitor friend )

I am writing to you about the fact that invoice number xxxxx dated DD/MM/YYYY remains unpaid despite several reminders. You have agreed to pay it verbally and by text message several times, yet payment has not been received.
The amount due for payment is £---. The original invoice is enclosed. Payment became due on DD/MM/YY.
If the full amount of the sum outstanding as set out above is not paid within 14 days of the date of this letter, I will begin legal action without further warning to obtain a court order requiring payment. The court may order costs of legal proceedings and other amounts to be paid in addition to the outstanding debt.
This letter is being sent in accordance with the pre-action conduct requirements set out in the Civil Procedure Rules which stipulate you must acknowledge receipt of this letter within 14 days. The court has the power to rule against you if you fail to respond.

I await your immediate payment of the outstanding amount. Payment can be made by bank transfer etc....
Yours sincerely

3) On day 15 register your claim. You need to look like you mean business so don't delay any further.

The process does allow claiming interest (8% per year pro rata) but as you didn't have written terms I personally wouldn't complicate proceedings by doing so. Keep it simple.
I predict either instant payment, or payment once they receive the claim pack.

All the best with it - it's the bad side of being self employed when people don't pay.

 

[Sookme]

I'd be inclined to:
1) Register with MCOL - Money Claim Online - Welcome - https://www.moneyclaim.gov.uk/ today so you can instantly follow up if required to without further delay.
2) Send written letter, recorded delivery. (This is adapted from one I had to write which was supplied to me by a solicitor friend )

I am writing to you about the fact that invoice number xxxxx dated DD/MM/YYYY remains unpaid despite several reminders. You have agreed to pay it verbally and by text message several times, yet payment has not been received.
The amount due for payment is £---. The original invoice is enclosed. Payment became due on DD/MM/YY.
If the full amount of the sum outstanding as set out above is not paid within 14 days of the date of this letter, I will begin legal action without further warning to obtain a court order requiring payment. The court may order costs of legal proceedings and other amounts to be paid in addition to the outstanding debt.
This letter is being sent in accordance with the pre-action conduct requirements set out in the Civil Procedure Rules which stipulate you must acknowledge receipt of this letter within 14 days. The court has the power to rule against you if you fail to respond.

I await your immediate payment of the outstanding amount. Payment can be made by bank transfer etc....
Yours sincerely

3) On day 15 register your claim. You need to look like you mean business so don't delay any further.

The process does allow claiming interest (8% per year pro rata) but as you didn't have written terms I personally wouldn't complicate proceedings by doing so. Keep it simple.
I predict either instant payment, or payment once they receive the claim pack.

All the best with it - it's the bad side of being self employed when people don't pay.

Much appreciated! Some sound advice.

Is there a fee to register MCOL? For example if I register and she gets the claim pack and pays me, do I then need to pay a fee of any kind?

Cheers

 

[Sookme]

I’d try giving her a phone call first and ask her what the problem is. If there’s no movement and she doesn’t pay up, you’ve got no option but to threaten small claims court.

If she does pay up, I’d take my money and run, don’t need customers like that.

I don’t know what your policy is, but in normally hold off issuing any certification until the bills paid, it’s stated on my T&C’s along with any materials provided remain property of etc… until bills paid.

Thanks for the advice.

Like I said I’ve just gone self employed so it’s new to me, all a learning curve I guess. But most definitely will be looking in to what you’ve mentioned.

Cheers

 

[Sookme]

Unfortunately sounds like one of those times you're going to have to threaten small claims. Have you ever been self employed before this year? Always good to get a specific specification of work in writing before the start - sounds like a lot of verbal agreements going on here

It’s my first time. You’re right, ideally it should’ve been written and signed. Maybe I will keep some blank templates in the van to hand write and sign in the future.

 

[timhoward]

Much appreciated! Some sound advice.

Is there a fee to register MCOL? For example if I register and she gets the claim pack and pays me, do I then need to pay a fee of any kind?

Cheers

No fee to register. Registering doesn't start any action of any kind.

If you do a claim application there is a fee for that that you pay up front (see below)
If they get a claim pack and decide to pay you directly, not through the process, it actually becomes complicated and you then have to decide what to do. I've not had that happen myself.
My understanding is that you either cancel the process and lose your fee, or continue with a reduced claim to cover court fees.

(There are lots of guides to this process online btw)

 

[Markyd]

Find her or her company on Social media..Then tell her if its not paid will let all her clients and friends know she is a bad payer...Money will be in bank in 10 mins Guaranteed

 

[Mike Johnson]

One additional threat is that if this work was carried out in her home and she is trying to use your invoice as a business expense it would seem to indicate a possible tax fraud, Inland Revenue take these sort of things very seriously, also is she registered for VAT, a VAT inspection is to be feared especially by someone that has proven herself, shale we say not of her word.

If you go this route, do make sure your own books are up to date.

 

[Sookme]

No fee to register. Registering doesn't start any action of any kind.

If you do a claim application there is a fee for that that you pay up front (see below)
If they get a claim pack and decide to pay you directly, not through the process, it actually becomes complicated and you then have to decide what to do. I've not had that happen myself.
My understanding is that you either cancel the process and lose your fee, or continue with a reduced claim to cover court fees.

(There are lots of guides to this process online btw)
View attachment 94905

Thank I really appreciate your time and advice!

 

[Sookme]

Find her or her company on Social media..Then tell her if its not paid will let all her clients and friends know she is a bad payer...Money will be in bank in 10 mins Guaranteed

Yes I was actually thinking of doing that on google and Facebook, but getting the money first then warning everyone who’s considering doing work for her to think twice!

 

[Sookme]

One additional threat is that if this work was carried out in her home and she is trying to use your invoice as a business expense it would seem to indicate a possible tax fraud, Inland Revenue take these sort of things very seriously, also is she registered for VAT, a VAT inspection is to be feared especially by someone that has proven herself, shale we say not of her word.

If you go this route, do make sure your own books are up to date.

That’s true! She is VAT registered. These are all things that could help, I was thinking about getting my money before souring the water to much though. Cheers

 

[Sookme]

Update: called and text yesterday as one final nudge before sending my letter before action. Her reply “sorry I haven’t forgot, I don’t want to bore you but we haven’t had access to our accounts since Monday. Text me tomorrow (today) at 11am”. So I will text today at 11am if any more rubbish follows the email/letter before action is ready to be sent at 11:01”

Cheers everyone

 

[JBW175]

Update: called and text yesterday as one final nudge before sending my letter before action. Her reply “sorry I haven’t forgot, I don’t want to bore you but we haven’t had access to our accounts since Monday. Text me tomorrow (today) at 11am”. So I will text today at 11am if any more rubbish follows the email/letter before action is ready to be sent at 11:01”

Cheers everyone

Well I hope she comes good for you at 11 and you get your money mate.

 

[casperLennon]

Good luck. It’s horrible being ripped off.

 

[loz2754]

I would be careful about using any kind of name and shame tactics, as you could find yourself being sued for slander.
If you don't get your money, follow the official route of going through money claims online.
I did it for a sum owed of £180. It went to court (you don't need to go to court) and was awarded the full sum and 8% interest accrued for every day since the invoice due date. Also the initial fee.

 

[timhoward]

@loz2754 is right, you need to be seen to be being professional, and it actually harms your reputation if you engage in underhand methods to coerce payment. If I saw someone posting accusations online the poster would lose my respect instantly.

 

[Mike Johnson]

Update: I don’t want to bore you but we haven’t had access to our accounts since Monday.

She doesn't want to bore you why she has not paid up???? only reason she has not had access to her account is that the bank or a court order has frozen her assets, there may be a sequestering order on her account by another client she has not paid.

 

[Sookme]

I would be careful about using any kind of name and shame tactics, as you could find yourself being sued for slander.
If you don't get your money, follow the official route of going through money claims online.
I did it for a sum owed of £180. It went to court (you don't need to go to court) and was awarded the full sum and 8% interest accrued for every day since the invoice due date. Also the initial fee.

It’s a very good point. Did you go through MCOL? I will give 7 days notice today if unpaid, after 7 days I will register my claim.

Is it a straightforward procedure? I’ve asked if there’s any issues which she has replied no, I have conversations of the rate agreed in writing and also her agreeing to pay 4/5 times and confirming there’s no issues.

My worry is I will register the claim, pay the fee and then when the court letter arrives she will pay, leaving me out of pocket by the application fee?

Cheers for the advice.

 

[Sookme]

She doesn't want to bore you why she has not paid up???? only reason she has not had access to her account is that the bank or a court order has frozen her assets, there may be a sequestering order on her account by another client she has not paid.

That was my worry, but she is a sole trader not Ltd so therefor I should get my money if above is has happened right?

Cheers

 

[Mike Johnson]

If she pays up at the point of court action you send her another invoice for the fee she forced you to pay and interest on the monies for the time period she did not pay.

 

[Sookme]

@loz2754 is right, you need to be seen to be being professional, and it actually harms your reputation if you engage in underhand methods to coerce payment. If I saw someone posting accusations online the poster would lose my respect instantly.

You’re right me too, it’s just annoying. But I agree sinking down a level would be unprofessional and damage reputation. I will be following the proper procedure to claim monies back.

Thanks for the advice

 

[Mike Johnson]

That was my worry, but she is a sole trader not Ltd so therefor I should get my money if above is has happened right?

Cheers

Not if she is declared bankrupt, any court official who may be appointed to discharge her affairs will proportion any payout to those debtors on her account, if by the time it comes to you it may be as little as 2% of your invoice value.

 

[HappyHippyDad]

Update: called and text yesterday as one final nudge before sending my letter before action. Her reply “sorry I haven’t forgot, I don’t want to bore you but we haven’t had access to our accounts since Monday. Text me tomorrow (today) at 11am”. So I will text today at 11am if any more rubbish follows the email/letter before action is ready to be sent at 11:01”

Cheers everyone

You sound like you have been staying (outwardly) calm and professional towards her, which is definitely the right way to go if you want to increase your chances of getting paid. In most cases like this the person does pay in the end, they are usually just absolutely rubbish at organising their own affairs and have loads of other stuff going on in their lives. Of course, there is the one in a thousand who is not going to pay and court is required.

After about 30 days of non-payment I usually explain that I am a small business, just myself and that late payments have a huge impact as I am unable to pay my own bills on time. Play on the heart strings a little, professionally.

Don't get put off being self employed @Sookme . It's great! I have had perhaps only 3 customers over my 8 year self employed period that have stalled paying for longer than 30 days. Even they have paid in the end. You have just been unlucky that you have had this right at the beginning.

Definitely have all quotes written down, plus send all changes to a quote by email so there is a paper trail.

Let us know the outcome in an hour
She sounds pretty chaotic so I bet she doesn't pay by 11am, but I bet you get paid later in the day of over the next few days. We should start a poll

 

[Sookme]

If she pays up at the point of court action you send her another invoice for the fee she forced you to pay and interest on the monies for the time period she did not pay.

You sound like you have been staying (outwardly) calm and professional towards her, which is definitely the right way to go if you want to increase your chances of getting paid. In most cases like this the person does pay in the end, they are usually just absolutely rubbish at organising their own affairs and have loads of other stuff going on in their lives. Of course, there is the one in a thousand who is not going to pay and court is required.

After about 30 days of non-payment I usually explain that I am a small business, just myself and that late payments have a huge impact as I am unable to pay my own bills on time. Play on the heart strings a little, professionally.

Don't get put off being self employed @Sookme . It's great! I have had perhaps only 3 customers over my 8 year self employed period that have stalled paying for longer than 30 days. Even they have paid in the end. You have just been unlucky that you have had this right at the beginning.

Definitely have all quotes written down, plus send all changes to a quote by email so there is a paper trail.

Let us know the outcome in an hour
She sounds pretty chaotic so I bet she doesn't pay by 11am, but I bet you get paid later in the day of over the next few days. We should start a poll

I can already see the massive upside of being self employed, always knew late or non paying customers would be the biggest struggle! It hasn’t got me down to much, just learnt in the future to maybe prepare a signed estimate and get more down in writing.

I notice you’re from Gloucestershire, me too. I wonder if it’s the same late paying customer

I’ll keep you updated, she seems a very hectic person and am around the 28 day mark but invoice stated payment on receipt. I didn’t bother her for the first 14 day. But day 14,21 and now 28 I think is fair to send some gentle reminders. I’ll wait for her response today and send a polite final demand letter/email if unpaid. I for sure won’t be dealing with her again in a hurry, all customers have been great so far paying on completion of work off there own back. I guess there’s always one though!

Cheers

 

[Mike Johnson]

Work for her again, but with payment up front in future, or at least 50% up front and stage payments thereafter to minimise your exposure. Do not start the next stage until the previous stage payment has been made.

 

[HappyHippyDad]

I can already see the massive upside of being self employed, always knew late or non paying customers would be the biggest struggle! It hasn’t got me down to much, just learnt in the future to maybe prepare a signed estimate and get more down in writing.

I notice you’re from Gloucestershire, me too. I wonder if it’s the same late paying customer

I’ll keep you updated, she seems a very hectic person and am around the 28 day mark but invoice stated payment on receipt. I didn’t bother her for the first 14 day. But day 14,21 and now 28 I think is fair to send some gentle reminders. I’ll wait for her response today and send a polite final demand letter/email if unpaid. I for sure won’t be dealing with her again in a hurry, all customers have been great so far paying on completion of work off there own back. I guess there’s always one though!

Cheers

Sounds like you're dealing with it perfectly sookme.

I have left my dodgy customers in my phone and have added "POOR PAY" next to their names so that I know not to quote for them again. Even that feels good, as we can choose who we work for because we have more control over our lives being self employed.

Whereabouts are you in Glos? I'm Stroud/Stonehouse area.

 

[loz2754]

It’s a very good point. Did you go through MCOL? I will give 7 days notice today if unpaid, after 7 days I will register my claim.

Is it a straightforward procedure? I’ve asked if there’s any issues which she has replied no, I have conversations of the rate agreed in writing and also her agreeing to pay 4/5 times and confirming there’s no issues.

My worry is I will register the claim, pay the fee and then when the court letter arrives she will pay, leaving me out of pocket by the application fee?

Cheers for the advice.

Yes I used MCOL. It's fairly straightforward. Read all the help information first.
If she pays up before going to court, I suggest that you inform her that you're continuing the claim in order to recover your fees, and ask her to pay the fees before it gets that far.
Good luck. And don't ever work for her again.

 

[Sookme]

Sounds like you're dealing with it perfectly sookme.

I have left my dodgy customers in my phone and have added "POOR PAY" next to their names so that I know not to quote for them again. Even that feels good, as we can choose who we work for because we have more control over our lives being self employed.

Whereabouts are you in Glos? I'm Stroud/Stonehouse area.

Good idea! Love the amount of control I’ve got back since being self employed.

Nice, I’m Wye Valley/forest of dean border.

 

[JBW175]

Patiently waiting to hear the outcome…..

 

[HappyHippyDad]

Patiently waiting to hear the outcome…..

We live the life don't we

 

[Sookme]

No response sorry to disappoint guys!

 

[casperLennon]

How much does she owe you? Or is that rude of me to ask.

 

[timhoward]

How much does she owe you? Or is that rude of me to ask.

While we are carrying out the inquisition - I've been supressing asking if this was work on a rental property. No idea why I have that gut reaction....

 

[Sookme]

While we are carrying out the inquisition - I've been supressing asking if this was work on a rental property. No idea why I have that gut reaction....

Not a rental property. Why is that?

 

[Mike Johnson]

Different rules apply to the agent and owner for rental properties and any EICR.