DNO or Not DNO, that is the question....

[Dartlec]

One of my landlords has an upstairs maisonette which will be changing tenants next week so will need an EICR - I already know there is an issue from a while back which I notified to landlord with a damaged 'Fuse Head'

This is how it used to be ?‍ (Yes, live parts were under the "insulation" tape

So I made good best I could on a previous visit and notified the DNO on the day who were due to attend that night.

I notified the landlord in writing and left it there - but have now found out that the DNO came to look at it and claimed it was not their responsibility.

Since it's prior to the meter, surely it has to be their responsibility? If not, then who's is it?

Anyway, I managed to pop into the lower flat today to have a look.

It's a split dual fuse head from a TNS incoming wire - the old tails go into a pipe in the wall up to the upper maisonette. A fuse head was then installed there, possibly because of distances of tails, (The tails might just be about 3m)

Anyone want to date the tails? No obvious sign of deterioration along the length, but fraying a bit where they leave the downstairs fuse...

I'll try ringing the DNO tomorrow, but since the item in question is before the meter, how would you deal with it? Seems a bit daft to put in a new fused switch there, for the small run to the CU, but I'm also wary of touching the cable pre-meter without something agreed to cover me against claims of meter fiddling.

Pass through Henley Block might be the best option to at least make it safe for now, but future meter installers might well look at that dubiously...

 

[westward10]

More PBJ (PolyButyl Jute).
Hard to say who's responsibility that is, the fuse carrier and holder are certainly mismatched and I wouldn't have thought that is a DNOs doing.

 

[Dartlec]

More PBJ (PolyButyl Jute).
Hard to say who's responsibility that is, the fuse carrier and holder are certainly mismatched and I wouldn't have thought that is a DNOs doing.

Just read the other post! Looks like they should be doing it then - though whether I can get them to agree to that before the new tenants move in is another matter.....

 

[Julie.]

If the meter is owned by the dno or meter operator/supplier then the responsibility is the dno.

If the meter is owned by the landlord then it's the landlord's responsibility.

I would assume the dno guy came out looked at the damaged bit in the flat, and assumed the meter was the landlord's and the proper charge meter was elsewhere.

 

[westward10]

Even though the meter has a seal it means nothing. Confirm with the service provider from the serial number as to whether they own it.

 

[Dartlec]

If the meter is owned by the dno or meter operator/supplier then the responsibility is the dno.

If the meter is owned by the landlord then it's the landlord's responsibility.

I would assume the dno guy came out looked at the damaged bit in the flat, and assumed the meter was the landlord's and the proper charge meter was elsewhere.

More likely it was late afternoon and he didn't want to have to do anything...or is that me being cynical...

It's definitely the suppliers meter - but I'm guessing going to them will be even less fruitful....

 

[westward10]

The meter board numbers are sequential.

 

[HappyHippyDad]

Damn, I wish I'd seen this thread an hour earlier. I could have casually said, 'oh yeah that'll be PBJ', and been all cool and knowledgwable!

 

[Lucien Nunes]

Ideally it should be a red link upstairs. Usual business where DNO wants to make it BNO's responsibility but there is no BNO because it's just a house, not a big block of flats.

The + and - labels above the cutouts are interesting. The inference would be that it was a 3-wire DC service and the house might have already been split into two maisonettes during the DC era. 3-wire DC was the equivalent of split-phase AC, with a positive live and a negative live either side of neutral, typically 230-0-230. Ordinary house supplies had one live or the other, larger installations got both. (It's historical, so I call the outer conductors live, not line.)

Nowadays those are likely to be on two phases out of the three available in the road. In any case the labels are obsolete. If they happened to fall off the meter board, please salvage them, we need some for a mock-up DC service at the museum.

 

[Rockingit]

Starting point is probably to do a postcode search and find out the number of Mpan's registered there. If it's been deemed a BNO system (which would frankly be daft for just two dwellings) then the second service head is the landlords irrespective of the meter it feeds belonging to the energy supplier (hence the MPAN enquiry). The practical issue that you've got, though, is safely isolating the main intake in order to fit new tails up to a new single bullet.

 

[Rockingit]

This guide might help

 

[Dartlec]

Ideally it should be a red link upstairs. Usual business where DNO wants to make it BNO's responsibility but there is no BNO because it's just a house, not a big block of flats.

The + and - labels above the cutouts are interesting. The inference would be that it was a 3-wire DC service and the house might have already been split into two maisonettes during the DC era. 3-wire DC was the equivalent of split-phase AC, with a positive live and a negative live either side of neutral, typically 230-0-230. Ordinary house supplies had one live or the other, larger installations got both. (It's historical, so I call the outer conductors live, not line.)

Nowadays those are likely to be on two phases out of the three available in the road. In any case the labels are obsolete. If they happened to fall off the meter board, please salvage them, we need some for a mock-up DC service at the museum.

When was the DC era out of interest? I believe these were built as maisonettes and may be Victorian, so it may make some sense.

I'll likely be back there next week, so if the labels happen to fall off I'll let you know....

 

[Lucien Nunes]

All sorts of different supplies, AC and DC, were installed up to the publishing of the Weir report in 1926. This was the instigation of the National Grid and standardisation of supplies as 50Hz AC so that all the separate areas could be tied together and served by the newly formed CEGB. From then on, although DC networks were extended where needed, new networks were required to be AC. By the early 1930s there was a large asset base of DC plant and although it then began to decrease towards WW2, it was not until the 1950s that the changeover started to reach completion overall. A small amount of DC hung on until the 1970s e.g. supplies to miners' homes provided by the local mine's power station, areas that had used tram / trolleybus traction infrastructure for public supply, or where there were too many industrial DC customers to get rid of the DC even when all domestic customers were already on AC.

 

[Dartlec]

Clearly one of those jobs where things just get murkier.

DNO attended the top flat and noted that it was a riser and wasn't UKPN equipment, though apparently 'made safe'.

Man on the phone reckons he's been inundated with earthing requests since the new landlord law came in...

And now I find out that apparently they had a smart meter installed in August - which the landlord didn't know about ?‍ - So he clearly thought it was 'safe'.

And behold - what the DNO person apparently did to improve the situation:

So what do I put on the EICR? FI perhaps - but they wouldn't book another job to look at it since the previous one found it was not theirs, even though they all accept its before the energy supplier's meter!

Best they could suggest was getting the downstairs owner to ring 105 and get a safety check on the cables from her end....

Starting to think maybe just putting a Wylex isolator at the top of the riser is the easiest option - that way when the board is changed it will make things easier, and if they do deign to replace their cabling, then they can connect to it directly.

Any guesses on the size of that riser pipe? Very tight with the two existing cables, so I'm not sure 16mm modern tails would comply with BS7671 re conduit spacing, etc. if I wanted to do them myself anyway.

 

[Rockingit]

Is that single service fuse directly fed off of another one? If it is, then you're 'fine' to install a KMF type arrangment directly off the 'main' incomer and treat the meter upstairs as part of a standard sub-main radial. That's what a BNO is, basically. Thus, the dodgy bullet disappears forever........

 

[Dartlec]

Is that single service fuse directly fed off of another one? If it is, then you're 'fine' to install a KMF type arrangment directly off the 'main' incomer and treat the meter upstairs as part of a standard sub-main radial. That's what a BNO is, basically. Thus, the dodgy bullet disappears forever........

Yes - the PBJ cable runs directly from the mains head downstairs up in a metal pipe (which is earthed to the TNS incoming cable and carries the earth upstairs) - a bit less than 3m I'd say - and presumably there is a fuse in the Isco head downstairs, though not removed the tag to find out...

So it's arguable if the tails need extra protection under normal circumstances - but I either put the KMF downstairs, which is an another property and runs the risk of downstairs turning it off accidentally... Or put the KMF upstairs for local isolation, but it's then protecting maybe 0.5m tails maximum.

There isn't a great deal of slack above the pipe upstairs so that might rule out most of the bigger metal ones , and always the risk that the cable will crumble while doing it....

Something like this might just squeeze in there:

But it's plastic, and this is domestic so does it count as a consumer unit or switchgear assembly?


Given that this cable is straight from the DNO service head - and prior to the meter, I just assumed it was always DNO's responsibility -

Most of the flats that I've been in that have a BNO have a meter room somewhere by the head, with isolators then on to the flats...

 

[Rockingit]

My thinking was that if you have a down-fused isolator you could probably squeeze some 16mmT&E down the riser pipe? It's that or running new tails up separately as anything else and you'll need to overcome RCD issues (or run an SWA!)

 

[DPG]

Love how everyone who visits just adds some different colour tape on top of the existing!

 

[ruston]

Love how everyone who visits just adds some different colour tape on top of the existing!

Like a dog peeing on a lamp post.

 

[7029 dave]

https://www.peclights.com/product/s...SU0sbOww4goV12At9J2TnCofN1aewzThoCkWoQAvD_BwE