Downlights and the different varieties..

[HappyHippyDad]

I was with a customer today discussing installing new downlights.

I can't quite see the point in installing the really expensive ones as opposed to the cheaper ones. I don't mean the silly cheap ones on ebay that will just fall apart, but for example...

Lap fixed LED from screwfix £7 approx (good reviews and feel like good quality) compared to JCC, robus, enlite etc etc £15-20?

Also, do you guys prefer integrated LED downlights or ones that you can change the bulb? Again, I struggle with the concept of integrated as you have to change the whole downlight when they go. Are they supposed to have a longer life expectancy? A quality LED lamp is supposed to have about 15 years life expectancy so why not just fit a downlight with a quality changeable LED lamp as opposed to an integrated unit?

 

[Midwest]

Hang on, I’ll just nip out and get some popcorn.

 

[SparkyChick]

Personally I avoid integrated fittings as much as I can. Styles and such change so rapidly these days I dread the thought of having to explain to a client I can't simply replace the one that's failed because I can't get the fittings any more. So I tend to go for lamps that use GU10 bulbs

 

[Andy78]

I have had problems with GU10 leds since I started using them. Cheap brands and expensive brands.
I have had problems with cheap integrated led fittings.
I have had minimal to negligible problems with the mid range integrated fittings I use.

The GU10 form was designed for the purposes of housing a halogen light source. This was not designed for housing a led source, this is a retrofit solution and pretty much the definition of a bodge.

Just look at the heatsink chip cooling solutions provided with integrated led fittings and it should become apparent that the GU10 form is not the best format for housing such equipment.

 

[ED17]

Same here. Can't always get a match for integrated so it's GU10 type. We tend to use click.

 

[Midwest]

Failure rate is not much of an argument IMO, as both formats will last a very long time, unless you have the misfortune (like me) to install some particular examples. In the most part, if they fail, they fail pretty soon after installation.

I would like someone to give some more prices of a good GU10 lamp (notice I didn't say bulb) and can (sorry HHD, not LAP), compared to your average integrated ones. 1st floor etc installation, don't see how you can install anything other than a good quality integrated, which can be covered by insulation. Can the others?

If you're concerned about lamp replacement, JCC hybrids are easily replaceable by the end user. Think there some others on the market.

On the other hand, I've recently gone over to the dark side, and fitted some Philips Hue gu10's in my house. Output's a bit on the mean side. See Aurora and doing some 'Smart' lighting with GU10's, better output. Perhaps thats where the market will start to go.

 

[Andy78]

If you're concerned about lamp replacement, JCC hybrids are easily replaceable by the end user. Think there some others on the market.

JCC have now discontinued this line and flogged all their stock to a wholesale discounter.

 

[Midwest]

JCC have now discontinued this line and flogged all their stock to a wholesale discounter.

That didn't last long, did it. Wonder how the warranty will work on that then?

 

[Andy78]

That didn't last long, did it. Wonder how the warranty will work on that then?

I believe JCC have kept the legally required amount for warranty purposes, but all their sale stock has been got rid of. This info came from the discounter who was flogging them on a facebook group and using this reason to justify the low prices they were selling for. Might need verifying.

 

[Midwest]

I believe JCC have kept the legally required amount for warranty purposes, but all their sale stock has been got rid of. This info came from the discounter who was flogging them on a facebook group and using this reason to justify the low prices they were selling for. Might need verifying.

Your post prompted me to read this piece;

JCC FlameGuard Downlights – End of an Era - JCC Lighting, Latest News - Downlights Direct Advice - https://www.downlightsdirect.co.uk/advice/lighting-brand-names/jcc-lighting/jcc-flameguard-downlights-end-of-an-era/

Seems they got their fingers burnt with the FGLED6. The V50, now only has a 3 year warranty. But it seems its a third of the price of the old FGLED10 etc.​

 

[Andy78]

Seems they got their fingers burnt with the FGLED6. The V50, now only has a 3 year warranty. But it seems its a third of the price of the old FGLED10 etc.​

Seems more sensible. I did think their 7-9 year warranties were a bit ambitious. It's an evolving technology so the early models are clearly destined to become obsolete.

I have heard good things about the V50 model so far. It is very similar to the KSR models I have been using for few years now. They also do a CCT version.

 

[NDG Elecs]

I normally lean towards Enlite E8 and E5s. Found them reasonably priced (online) and no failures to date that I know of.
I avoid Lap gear generally but I actually don't mind their LED GU10s, very good price and of the many I've fitted only been called back once. Screwfix swap them for new with no quibbles.
I would prefer non integrated fittings but they are largely harder to come by these days.

 

[Midwest]

Seems more sensible. I did think their 7-9 year warranties were a bit ambitious. It's an evolving technology so the early models are clearly destined to become obsolete.

I have heard good things about the V50 model so far. It is very similar to the KSR models I have been using for few years now. They also do a CCT version.

I convinced a guy to replace his troublesome MR16 luminaires in his house. Populated his whole house with JCC FGLED6's. Big mistake. Still replacing them one by one, 3 years on. In fairness to JCC, he just rings them up, and they send him a replacement FOC. Hope the last one goes before JCC run out of stock.

Not a good advert for integrated.

 

[davesparks]

Personally I use eco600s from ecostar, I've found them to be incredibly reliable and they look better than most as you can't see the individual LEDs.
The price is a bit much for some people but I've never had an issue with it.

 

[Andy78]

I convinced a guy to replace his troublesome MR16 luminaires in his house. Populated his whole house with JCC FGLED6's. Big mistake. Still replacing them one by one, 3 years on. In fairness to JCC, he just rings them up, and they send him a replacement FOC. Hope the last one goes before JCC run out of stock.

Not a good advert for integrated.

Definitely not, but that range seemed to be very flawed. I once went to a large house full of failed JCC integrated fittings, not the FGLED but presumably a forerunner.

I'm happy with KSR. Been using them for over 4 years with only 2 faulty in that time out of many hundreds. They have altered their fittings' design slightly in the time I've been using them, but the visible parts match older ones very well.

 

[HappyHippyDad]

Well some interesting replies there with a big divergence in attitude towards integrated and non integrated.

I shall be sticking with non integrated I think. Like SC said, not being able to find a replacement 2 or 3 years later when they've gone out of stock would be embarrassing!

Cheers guys

 

[davesparks]

You could always keep a small stock of spares yourself, order an extra fitting each time and you'll soon have enough to cover yourself.

 

[Midwest]

Personally I use eco600s from ecostar, I've found them to be incredibly reliable and they look better than most as you can't see the individual LEDs.
The price is a bit much for some people but I've never had an issue with it.

I did try to price them up before when you previously recommended them, could not find any prices on-line. Guess if you have to ask, you can't afford them.

 

[ChrisElectrical88]

Click spotlights evertime. Use the exact same core unit and then you get the correctly IP rating covers for the envioment.

Each on comes with a built in click plug for easy loop in and out connections.

Fitting, LED lamp and besel about £12 all in. Will save you 1 few minutes a fitting.

 

[davesparks]

I did try to price them up before when you previously recommended them, could not find any prices on-line. Guess if you have to ask, you can't afford them.

They are wholesaler only as far as I know, the standard eco600 is around £30+vat off the top of my head

 

[Marcus Vaughan]

JCC have now discontinued this line and flogged all their stock to a wholesale discounter.

Yep. I’ve got a box of them that I’m about to send back. Customer first wanted half cool white and half warm white, then changed their mind to all warm white - but ....... you can’t get them anymore...

I’m using Lucecos now.

 

[mattg4321]

I fitted about 100 Ecostar downlights that were specified on a job about 5 years ago and thought they were very nice. Would use them again, but the cost is pretty high.

I wouldn't use the integrated emergency packs again though. Rubbish!

I think I got them from Edmundsons.

I also fitted some Nemesis units also from Photonstar. They were nice too, and dimmed really well I seem to remember.

 

[Electric Magic]

There are a number of GU10 insulation coverable fittings. Enlite EFD Pro, Ansell Edge (with a 50p attachment), and Knightsbridge Evolve to name a few (all of which also use pushfit connectors and cost between £4 and £7 each). Only time I use integrated fittings (and then it's either Halers or Aurora M Pro) if there's insufficient space in the void for one of the GU10 fittings above.

 

[Marvo]

Never used the integrated fittings, they're not widely available here.

As for whether it's worth paying more for some brands of GU10, I'd say it is.

There's lots of considerations when specifying an appropriate lamp for a customer. Obviously price is one and reliability another but for some customers power factor could be very important if they're not billed in kwh for example. Some cheaper lamps have a power factor below 0.5 and their running costs would be sky high compared to a lamp with a PF of 0.9 or higher.

Stability under dimming is another and whether they will dim using both forward and trailing edge PWM which would mean the same lamps could be used everywhere on a premises. Also colour rendering and consistancy of colour throughout the premises is very important to some customers.

Product consistancy over time is another factor, cheaper brands tend to change internal components from one batch to another, this results in many inconsistancies from colour rendering and stability under low dimming levels to reliability.

I've always stuck with Enlite lamps, we had a commercial contract where we installed over 600 dimmable GU10's a couple of years ago and to date there's been zero failures.

 

[Bellendian]

My go to fitting is Enlite E8's. I'm a pretty firm believer in the fact that an integrated fitting can be designed properly to dissipate heat, rather than trying to cram it all into a gu10 style lamp plugged into a largely empty tin can!
Years back I kitted out a few rentals with the old deep can gu10s to take megaman gu10 cfls....they were a complete disaster, constantly failing, all now been replaced by E8s.
Have fitted hundreds now, only failure I'm aware of is 1 that failed after a day.
I like the fact that the E8 is a 'cover all' solution at a sensible price. Good for bathrooms, good for having fibreglass on top, interchangeable bezel colour, ticks a lot of boxes for me.

 

[Midwest]

They are wholesaler only as far as I know, the standard eco600 is around £30+vat off the top of my head

What! I'd rather buy a GU10 + can

 

[Starjack]

Well some interesting replies there with a big divergence in attitude towards integrated and non integrated.

I shall be sticking with non integrated I think. Like SC said, not being able to find a replacement 2 or 3 years later when they've gone out of stock would be embarrassing!

Cheers guys

You could be dead in 3 years time. Live for the moment.

 

[Starjack]

I was with a customer today discussing installing new downlights.

I can't quite see the point in installing the really expensive ones as opposed to the cheaper ones. I don't mean the silly cheap ones on ebay that will just fall apart, but for example...

Lap fixed LED from screwfix £7 approx (good reviews and feel like good quality) compared to JCC, robus, enlite etc etc £15-20?

Also, do you guys prefer integrated LED downlights or ones that you can change the bulb? Again, I struggle with the concept of integrated as you have to change the whole downlight when they go. Are they supposed to have a longer life expectancy? A quality LED lamp is supposed to have about 15 years life expectancy so why not just fit a downlight with a quality changeable LED lamp as opposed to an integrated unit?

Did you tell her about your new Toolbelt

 

[Starjack]

They're Lamps not Bulbs , it's like dealing with Plumbers

 

[davesparks]

What! I'd rather buy a GU10 + can

It's horses for courses I guess, personally I find GU10s and other low cost integrated fittings to be ugly and I'm pretty sure my customers wouldnt accept them either.

 

[123]

It's horses for courses I guess, personally I find GU10s and other low cost integrated fittings to be ugly and I'm pretty sure my customers wouldnt accept them either.

Got any images of the ones you use?

A google of eco600 doesn't look too great...
View attachment 48195

 

[Rpa07]

A really good quality dimmable GU10, that you don’t want to go back to because of failure, and the purchase of a can is going to cost you upward of £13 anyway so put in a bit more and invest in quality.
I had to kit out a kitchen with customer supplied accessories, half was Lap and the other half cheap Knightsbridge - I’ve never murmured under my breath as much - felt dirty!

 

[davesparks]

Got any images of the ones you use?

A google of eco600 doesn't look too great...
View attachment 48195

The 600 range is here:
http://ecostar.photonstarlighting.co.uk/products/Eco600+ Range - NEW FOR 2017

If I remember I'll take some pictures of them fitted tomorrow when I'm on site.

 

[DC-backfrom the past]

I tend to use enlite with the replaceable Led bulbs gu10s.
I offer the integrated lights as an option and explain they are disposable. customers always plump for ….
"the lights , we change the bulbs ourselves "

always find the customer doesn't want to pay for a new light and the labour on top after 3 years ...as we all know all the lights wont go at the same time ...so 6 lights to replace +labour can be a fortune.
6 bulbs is approx. £10 all in ..no comparison really

 

[Midwest]

If I had GU10 laps going after 3 years, I would be changing my make and or source. They should last years, same as integrated ones, so thats not an argument really IMO.

 

[Rocky1964]

I always use the Enlight EFD Pro. They have interchangeable bezels, are insulation coverable and available in standard, tiltable and IP65. Tool-less installation (loop in/loop out) and are very reasonably priced. I try not to use anything else. It also gives the customer to change their mind about the colour of light they prefer (without having to change the entire fitting).

 

[EbolaSideRoom]

I was a committed JCC user until they pulled the plug on the FG range; I’ve had no end of LED6 models either stop working altogether or start flickering.
To begin with JCC were happy to reimburse me for my time installing fittings replaced under warranty, giving me additional stock, not cash. Suited me. All of a sudden they declined to do so and I’m left with my customers having to foot the bill or fit them for gratis.
I’ve gone over to KSR. No issues so far.

 

[jcs8215248]

I always use the Enlight EFD Pro. They have interchangeable bezels, are insulation coverable and available in standard, tiltable and IP65. Tool-less installation (loop in/loop out) and are very reasonably priced. I try not to use anything else. It also gives the customer to change their mind about the colour of light they prefer (without having to change the entire fitting).

I specified (and obtained for the installer) Enlight fittings with exchangeable bezels for a kitchen refit. The removable bezels made painting the newly skimmed ceiling very fast.

Unfortunately the decorator replaced the bezels before the paint was dry (less than 5 minutes after painting). Paint turns out to be a very effective glue! I managed to free up all but one (out of 20). The decorator had to come back and remove the fitting from the ceiling, repair the ceiling, and patch the paint.

I do like, and recommend, them assuming that you have a competent decorator. They are easy for redecoration as long as you do not rush to put them back too soon!

 

[davesparks]

I tend to use enlite with the replaceable Led bulbs gu10s.
I offer the integrated lights as an option and explain they are disposable. customers always plump for ….
"the lights , we change the bulbs ourselves "

always find the customer doesn't want to pay for a new light and the labour on top after 3 years ...as we all know all the lights wont go at the same time ...so 6 lights to replace +labour can be a fortune.
6 bulbs is approx. £10 all in ..no comparison really

If you are telling the customer that they only last 3 years I'm not surprised they don't want them, if you told the truth about their rated lifetime and the length of warranty of good quality fittings you might find a different outcome.

 

[Toneyz]

With these JCC fittings was it the driver that failed? could it be replaced? we fit a lot of top end commercial fittings and a lot of them are well over £100 and only give a year warranty from delivery (it can be a further 2 months till the occupier moves in) with the fast-changing availability of fittings makes you wonder what will happen in a few years time.

 

[EbolaSideRoom]

With these JCC fittings was it the driver that failed? could it be replaced? we fit a lot of top end commercial fittings and a lot of them are well over £100 and only give a year warranty from delivery (it can be a further 2 months till the occupier moves in) with the fast-changing availability of fittings makes you wonder what will happen in a few years time.

Not always the driver, no. The LED6 has 6 1watt (ish) leds on the pcb that is the light source. On some that have failed the leds have gradually failed one by one; when they get down to 3 the driver, not being dimmable, begins to carp out and causes them to flicker. Eventually they give out, not before inducing seizures in the poor occupants...

 

[coolsparx]

It took me a while to move away from GU10 in a can, for the cost & availability in years to come. I settled for the Collingwood H2 Pro, which I’ve been fitting for about 3 years now. I have to say they are brilliant & I think I’ve had only 1 failure. They have a 7 year warranty & the price from my local CEF is very competitive.

I have a few customers who have had previous sparks fit JCC’s, they are complete c**p by comparison & are failing fast! 1 unlucky customer has well over a hundred of them in their new house, with no warranty due to builder issues.

 

[Toneyz]

It took me a while to move away from GU10 in a can, for the cost & availability in years to come. I settled for the Collingwood H2 Pro, which I’ve been fitting for about 3 years now. I have to say they are brilliant & I think I’ve had only 1 failure. They have a 7 year warranty & the price from my local CEF is very competitive.

I have a few customers who have had previous sparks fit JCC’s, they are complete c**p by comparison & are failing fast! 1 unlucky customer has well over a hundred of them in their new house, with no warranty due to builder issues.

By what I read on here it seems very disappointing for JCC I know a few years ago they had a problem with these fittings and I thought that they had resolved this as for the customer with over 100 fittings what has JCC said about it word gets around regarding poor products just by reading experiences from valued members on the forum has put me off buying them. This may be why like Sparkychick I have stuck to GU10 in a can.

 

[coolsparx]

By what I read on here it seems very disappointing for JCC I know a few years ago they had a problem with these fittings and I thought that they had resolved this as for the customer with over 100 fittings what has JCC said about it word gets around regarding poor products just by reading experiences from valued members on the forum has put me off buying them. This may be why like Sparkychick I have stuck to GU10 in a can.

JCC have said they will honour the warranty direct to the customer if the customer writes to them with some kind of proof of purchase or installation date, however because of a fallout with the builder & not knowing who the electrical contractor was, they have nothing in writting. I managed to purchase a couple of chrome ones for them (1 for replacement & 1 for a spare) but I could not locate any white ones which are the majority of their fittings. JCC are holding any remaining stock for warranty replacements only.

 

[Toneyz]

JCC have said they will honour the warranty direct to the customer if the customer writes to them with some kind of proof of purchase or installation date, however because of a fallout with the builder & not knowing who the electrical contractor was, they have nothing in writting. I managed to purchase a couple of chrome ones for them (1 for replacement & 1 for a spare) but I could not locate any white ones which are the majority of their fittings. JCC are holding any remaining stock for warranty replacements only.

I thought a lot of these manufacturers had stickers in them with batch numbers etc.

 

[coolsparx]

I thought a lot of these manufacturers had stickers in them with batch numbers etc.

They do have batch numbers, however the warranty is with the original installer who purchased them from a known wholesaler or can be passed on to the consumer with their invoice, but the customer has no invoices or paperwork at all. JCC sales told me that if the customer wanted to write to JCC customer services or warranty department they might honour it but they might not.

When I install anything with more than 12 month warranty I always state the specific model & manufacturers warranty period, so they have a chance to claim it themselves, however most customers just want to contact me if they have a problem.

 

[Toneyz]

Very poor considering the amount fitted.

 

[1Justin]

JCC have now discontinued this line and flogged all their stock to a wholesale discounter.

I installed some JCC Hybrids based on their generous quoted light level and the marketing hype, using my normal rules of thumb. The output was underwhelming. I made myself go back and squeeze in a couple of extras because it was a bit embarrassing. Cost me a day that did. I won't fit those again.

 

[Marcus Vaughan]

I installed some JCC Hybrids based on their generous quoted light level and the marketing hype, using my normal rules of thumb. The output was underwhelming. I made myself go back and squeeze in a couple of extras because it was a bit embarrassing. Cost me a day that did. I won't fit those again.

Interesting. I might just have had a near miss after sending mine back before installing. Shame because I like the idea of them.