Dual board with no earth on final circuits

[davesparks]

[
Yes seriously,

I wouldn’t leave an unsafe condition but I can’t start chasing walls out to rewire if they don’t want me too

Have you confirmed the type of wiring installed and it's current condition?
Are you sure chasing would be necessary to rewire the affected circuits?

 

[westward10]

I agree mate. Thanks for input. Board change will take place then and replace the lot with plastic regardless.

Replacing accessories or parts with plastic is not necessarily a resolution of the issue as these replacements would have to be deemed and identified as Class II. See Regulation 415.1.2

 

[Sparksaflyin]

Is it a terraced house ?

It is mate yes.

 

[Sparksaflyin]

Why not?

Wait till they go on holidays and then chase all the new cables in. By the time they return it will be ready for redecorating

They are old enough as it is. I don’t wish to bring the part where I don’t get to see them anymore, any closer than is absolutely necessary

 

[ruston]

@Sparksaflyin . Well the supply may be eves fed to the terrace to supply alternate houses on different phases .
Usually the distribution is on an end gable , but I have seen them distributed from inside a property

 

[Sparksaflyin]

Replacing accessories or parts with plastic is not necessarily a resolution of the issue as these replacements would have to be deemed and identified as Class II. See Regulation 415.1.2

Maybe that is the case but the regs usually advise to change what is “reasonably practicable” and If they won’t let me rewire then I can only make it as safe as possible without. If the screws are insulated, the fittings plastic and the circuit protected by an rcd then I think it will be extremely difficult for someone (even my father ) to receive an electric shock

 

[westward10]

Fitting plastic caps over the screw heads is totally ineffective in providing Class II insulation. Aside from that Class II light switches do not exist.

 

[Sparksaflyin]

Well the supply may be eves fed to the terrace to supply alternate houses on different phases .
Usually the distribution is on an end gable , but I have seen them distributed from inside a property

Good shout! That would then make sense as to why it’s 3 separate armoureds coming in. Doesn’t make sense to me why they would all come into one property though?

 

[Sparksaflyin]

Good shout! That would then make sense as to why it’s 3 separate armoureds coming in. Doesn’t make sense to me why they would all come into one property though?

And then split to neighbours I mean

 

[davesparks]

Good shout! That would then make sense as to why it’s 3 separate armoureds coming in. Doesn’t make sense to me why they would all come into one property though?

If its armoured cable then it isn't a DNO supply, they don't use armoured cable, it must be a private supply?

 

[ruston]

When they built the houses they may have looped them underground to the alternate phase property. They did that here , but the distribution is usually on an external gable end and fed through the eves.

 

[davesparks]

Replacing accessories or parts with plastic is not necessarily a resolution of the issue as these replacements would have to be deemed and identified as Class II. See Regulation 415.1.2

Further to this there are other requirements to using double or reinforced insulation as a protective measure.

 

[davesparks]

Maybe that is the case but the regs usually advise to change what is “reasonably practicable” and If they won’t let me rewire then I can only make it as safe as possible without. If the screws are insulated, the fittings plastic and the circuit protected by an rcd then I think it will be extremely difficult for someone (even my father ) to receive an electric shock

When and where do the regs advise 'reasonably practicable'?
This phrase is used with regards to the location of a main bonding connection, but not to the application of other regulations as far as I am aware.

 

[westward10]

Further to this there are other requirements to using double or reinforced insulation as a protective measure.

I agree which is why I cited this Regulation.

 

[GBDamo]

Not takin sides on this one but it's a fascinating conversation.

On one side you have the "I'm leaving it safer than i found it" argument.

And on the other side you have the "regulations don't allow you to do what you want to do" argument.

There is also the law of "who touched it last" to think about and unless you have faultlessly followed the regs then you're culpable.

All leads to installations being left in an unsafe condition where they could be left in a safer condition as people won't pay to have them made compliant.

There should be a spirit of "if its an improvement then it's allowed" within the regs.

The current methodology of "it's fully compliant or walk away" is leading to electricians being put in the unenviable position of having to carry out partially compliant work, that leaves the installation safer, and carry the risk of prosecution.

I've not fallen foul of this as private domestic is not my bag, but can see it being a real dilema for those that do.

 

[Baddegg]

I was referring to the lack of an earth on the lighting. If it’s not there and they won’t let me change it, what exactly can I do? Thanks for the input though

What would you do if you were called to a customers house and were asked to do this work?.....

 

[Andy78]

Not takin sides on this one but it's a fascinating conversation.

On one side you have the "I'm leaving it safer than i found it" argument.

And on the other side you have the "regulations don't allow you to do what you want to do" argument.

There is also the law of "who touched it last" to think about and unless you have faultlessly followed the regs then you're culpable.

All leads to installations being left in an unsafe condition where they could be left in a safer condition as people won't pay to have them made compliant.

There should be a spirit of "if its an improvement then it's allowed" within the regs.

The current methodology of "it's fully compliant or walk away" is leading to electricians being put in the unenviable position of having to carry out partially compliant work, that leaves the installation safer, and carry the risk of prosecution.

I've not fallen foul of this as private domestic is not my bag, but can see it being a real dilema for those that do.

This is the way I approach it.
I follow the regulations as that is the standard we work to. I don't fall into the "The regs aren't statutory so we can choose them to suit" camp, as that makes no sense to me. You either follow a standard or don't.
If a customer doers not want me to follow regulations then I'm not doing the job. Simple as that.

If you follow 132.16 then you can't really be accused of leaving an unsafe situation. Ensure basic safety requirements are there and make sure the work you do is compliant.
If you do compliant work but potentially dangerous unrelated issues exist at the same address, you can make the owner aware verbally and in writing. You can't force anyone to have work done, but you can make them aware and you can walk away.

It doesn't matter if you were the "last one to touch it" as the work you do is detailed on the certificate provided.

There is no position of doing partially compliant work that could lead to prosecution unless you put yourself there by choice.

 

[Big jj]

I recently bought a 1960 build house. Been sorting out loads of issues. Back in 1976 I first qualified on the 14th edition. That came in 1966. It was common not to drop a CPC to the switch but normally a cpc is at the rose.
You might have that if you investigate. Understand the reluctance to rewire.
However in my house the cpc was just left cut back in the cable. No cpc at the switch drops. No metal conduits, just a metal cover in the plaster.
Some switch plates had been changed to pretty metal ones. Soon found out open circuit cpc. I rewired the drops and made many two way too.
Had loads of issues before I could update the consumer unit. In every socket the Neutral wire was connected to the metal back box and the cpc.
Found this when I did the testing when I moved in I was really puzzled why someone had done that. Not to any edition. My bald patch got a lot bigger. Took so much longer than I expected. Now have new board with Wylex DP RCBOs. Still have a shared Neutral somewhere on lighting. So only one 6amp for all internal lighting. Will be sorting that on my next break!!!

 

[Ian1981]

I don’t know why people feel the need to but plastic caps over switch screws as the provision of omission of fault protection can be applied at switch positions under regulation 410.3.9 indent (iii)
The note says that this exemption can be made to bolts, rivets,screws etc
This is my understanding of that regulation.
You can not grip the screw heads or make good enough contact with one in my opinion.

 

[davesparks]

There should be a spirit of "if its an improvement then it's allowed" within the regs.

The current methodology of "it's fully compliant or walk away" is leading to electricians being put in the unenviable position of having to carry out partially compliant work, that leaves the installation safer, and carry the risk of prosecution.

I've not fallen foul of this as private domestic is not my bag, but can see it being a real dilema for those that do.

The problem with "it's an improvement then its allowed" is that many people will see it as a licence to pick and choose whichever regulations are easiest/most profitable to comply with and not worry about the rest. You'd have more people than ever throwing in a new CU and not worrying about the condition of the old installation.

You only carry the risk of prosecution if something happens to bring about a prosecution. Everybody bends the rules, hopefully being fully aware of which rules can bend and which ones can't,but nobody is going to come on a forum and advise anyone which rules to bend or how they would deal with these partially compliant installations in the real world. On forums you will always get that text book answer.