Earth terminated outside.

[Buzz1980]

Ok sorry should have sent over correct photo. The question I am asking what reg is the installation going against when the earth connection is outside of the downlight connector block ? The downlight fitting are LAP double insulated and don’t have a earth connection so the L&N are connected into the fitting and the CPC is then folded back outside and installed into a wago to link the CPCs together. Now what reg is this against or is the reg only for only the live conductors and will be no code with the downlight installed this way ?

 

[westward10]

526.8 refers to the cores of sheathed cables being enclosed as required by 526.5, it makes no mention for the purpose of the conductor and the reference to 526.5 is the methods contained in that Regulation for the enclosure not whether it is a live conductor or not.
See 543.1.1 whereby the cpc is no longer an integral part of the cable as the sheath has been removed.
The cpc should be enclosed or mechanically protected.

 

[Lucien Nunes]

Aha, now I understand. The problem is not that the CPC connection to the fitting is exposed.... there isn't one because it's class II. The problem is the loop-through of the CPC from one T+E to the next via a Wago, which is exposed. The question is therefore partly whether the CPC can be unenclosed (as addressed by @westward10 above) and also whether a Wago terminal needs mechanical protection and enclosure to prevent the connection being damaged e.g. by movement of the cable. I think it would be up to Wago's instructions on the latter point but it's pretty obvious.

On a related note, is there not a reg that states any CPC that is not part of a sheathed cable or within containment must be a certain minimum CSA (2.5 or 4mm²?). I.e. you can run 10mm² 6491x through the ceiling without any containment but not 1.0?

 

[westward10]

On a related note, is there not a reg that states any CPC that is not part of a sheathed cable or within containment must be a certain minimum CSA (2.5 or 4mm²?). I.e. you can run 10mm² 6491x through the ceiling without any containment but not 1.0?

That is the gist of 543.1.1.

 

[Pretty Mouth]

526.8 refers to the cores of sheathed cables being enclosed as required by 526.5, it makes no mention for the purpose of the conductor and the reference to 526.5 is the methods contained in that Regulation for the enclosure not whether it is a live conductor or not.

I'm not sure I agree with your interpretation of these regulations.

526.5 begins "Every termination and joint in a live conductor or a PEN conductor shall be made within one of the following or a combination thereof...". This regulation has no requirements for CPCs, therefore neither does 526.8 IMO

 

[westward10]

I'm not sure I agree with your interpretation of these regulations.

526.5 begins "Every termination and joint in a live conductor or a PEN conductor shall be made within one of the following or a combination thereof...". This regulation has no requirements for CPCs, therefore neither does 526.8 IMO

526.8 refers to cores of sheathed cables this covers all cores. It's reference to 526.5 is to the enclosure methods.

 

[Pretty Mouth]

526.8 refers to cores of sheathed cables this covers all cores. It's reference to 526.5 is to the enclosure methods.

While I can see how you may have come to this conclusion (the regulation 526.8 could do with being clearer), I don't believe it to be correct. I believe 526.8 references 526.5 in full, and does not expect us to overlook the first sentence of 526.5.

 

[123]

I assume its something like this that's being referred to. I come across them a lot still and the cpc issue is the least of the problems, lucky if you see the cap screwed down, cable grip in place but will see plenty of brown and blue exposed. Dreadful items.

 

[timhoward]

the regulation 526.8 could do with being clearer

That wording has in fact been practically identical since at least 16th edition (earliest I have to hand) and I've never considered it at anything other than face value before tonight:

I can't see that it actually makes sense without applying the 1st sentence too of the 1st reg too.

Imagine a non-sheathed 10mm (single insulated) CPC running in conduit, then glanded from a BESA box, and off to bond a water pipe. According to the 2nd reg alone that would need to be enclosed, right?
I believe it to be the first sentence of the 1st reg that says "no, no need" as it's not a live conductor or a pen conductor.

I've never thought of it any other way, and am happy to be corrected.

 

[westward10]

However we read those two 543.1.1 does not permit the 1.0 cpc to be unenclosed.

 

[Pretty Mouth]

However we read those two 543.1.1 does not permit the 1.0 cpc to be unenclosed.

Agreed

 

[Pretty Mouth]

I think I know the LAP downlights the OP means (not the ones pictured), and have on occasion fitted them myself when supplied by a customer. I did the same, sheathed and folded the CPC back along the sheath and joined with a wago outside of the enclosure. While non-compliant, I don't see any real benefit in terms of safety in wiring in junction boxes to enclose the CPC connection.

 

[westward10]

You would have to list that as a departure then.

 

[pirate]

If you use the early Quinetic stuff, there is nowhere to park an unused cpc...some folk seem to manage to squeeze it into the connector block...but I don't.
Loop it outside, properly terminated into a Wago...and move on. It's completely obvious what it is, and it is instantly available for use as a cpc if required.
Maybe in 50 years, it might be disturbed...maybe in 5 years the rodents might attack!
Maybe we'll all be dead by then...but the looped-out cpc will not have been the cause of our demise, I'm pretty sure!

 

[westward10]

If you use the early Quinetic stuff, there is nowhere to park an unused cpc...some folk seem to manage to squeeze it into the connector block...but I don't.
Loop it outside, properly terminated into a Wago...and move on. It's completely obvious what it is, and it is instantly available for use as a cpc if required.
Maybe in 50 years, it might be disturbed...maybe in 5 years the rodents might attack!
Maybe we'll all be dead by then...but the looped-out cpc will not have been the cause of our demise, I'm pretty sure!

Then that is a non compliant installation, I assume you note this as a departure.

 

[James]

If you use the early Quinetic stuff, there is nowhere to park an unused cpc...some folk seem to manage to squeeze it into the connector block...but I don't.
Loop it outside, properly terminated into a Wago...and move on. It's completely obvious what it is, and it is instantly available for use as a cpc if required.

presumably in a wago box or other enclosure as per the instructions?

 

[pirate]

Yes, clearly a departure, and noted as such...but if enclosed suitably, then not a problem. What you actually do is a question of choice/location/circumstances/preference...we may have to adhere to standards, but we are professionals too...if we can justify it, we should stick by it.
A superflous cpc at a class 2 luminaire with a cpc in an external Wago is not a problem. The fitting doesn't need it.
A cpc available at every light fitting is a good thing.
A change to a Class 1 luminaire means a cpc is available, and at that time, proper enclosure is important.
Always be aware that YOUR choice is going to be questioned...and be prepared to defend your choice with robust and valid arguments. Don't be afraid of the "rules Gods", just have a reasoned approach to defend, and state your case accordingly.
Yes, I know...don't start, ok? Do it right, or do it right enough and safely.

 

[westward10]

Yes but you can't defend it what should have happened is a suitable luminaire connector with a two core cable. This is the professional approach.

 

[123]

@westward10 How does anyone fit these correctly?

 

[pirate]

Not sure what you mean Westy...if i had a suitable class 2 luminaire then a cpc wouldn't be needed. A 2 core cable serving it would be fine, but not future proof. I'd rather cable for what might be, rather than what is...so cpc at each lighting point, which is now the norm...
and if the cpc isn't required, at least it is there for future use. OK, a "floating" cpc isn't ideal, but connected in a Wago or Ideal it's not exactly going to kill anyone is it?
Oh...look. we have a fault on the lighting circuit...the mcb has tripped!
No! It's worse...the rcd has tripped... or the rcbo...
I know! Let's open up the Wagos that have the cpc connectivity and lick the bare ends!
Westy, we looked at a poor connector...but we both know there are various ways of sorting that out...I totally agree with your scenario of perfection, but in the real world I do feel there is room for variation, provided you can justify it...that's all I'm saying. In a previous life, I argued black was white...and sometimes it was.
Having said all that...
We all should strive to do what is best, and if that's not possible, do what is as near to best as we can manage.
and if that's not possible?
Bodge it!
,,,but bodge it safely!
It's what we have to do...sometimes.