Electric car charging pods

[jason121]

The top socket is 13amp the others are multi pin connection

 

[HandySparks]

24kWh @ say 15p/kwh = 0 to full for £3.60 mmmm and Range ~ 100m (New European Driving Cycle - Wikipedia) = 0.36p/mile

Actually 3.6p/mile
or perhaps half this if done overnight on E7?

 

[Worcester]

OK I new I my mafs werent g8 :juggle:

 

[Earthstore]

Yes, but it would need to be a very big 3 pin plug.

If you do some basic calcs:
The sign says empty to full in less than 30 minutes. A Nissan Leaf (for example) has a battery capacity of 24kWh.

So, you're filling the battery at a rate of 24kWh in half an hour, ie 48kWh per hour, =48kW.

At 230V, 48kW =209A. That's a big plug!

Or, more likely, on a 3 phase supply at about 70A.

The numbers will vary from car to car, but this isn't going to be too far out.

This is the spec for the Nissan Leaf,
The port on the left is for level-3 (480-V, 125 A) charging; the port on the right is for level-1 (120 V, 12 A) & level-2 (240 V, 30 A) charging. The plug for the right port is an SAE-J1772 standard plug. The plug for the left level-3 port is aCHAdeMO standard plug (up to 62.5 kW).

Bow to some of your expertise on this, but the max for fast charging is 125A for the fast charge, so 3 phase as you stated, or trickle charge is/can be single phase 30A.

If you put 209A into the batteries it would just boil them, not that I would recommend to fast charge them often at 125A either as it would reduce the battery service life tremendously.

The slower you charge a DC battery the longer it will last.

I hope this helps.

 

[HandySparks]

This is the spec for the Nissan Leaf,
The port on the left is for level-3 (480-V, 125 A) charging; the port on the right is for level-1 (120 V, 12 A) & level-2 (240 V, 30 A) charging. The plug for the right port is an SAE-J1772 standard plug. The plug for the left level-3 port is aCHAdeMO standard plug (up to 62.5 kW).

Bow to some of your expertise on this, but the max for fast charging is 125A for the fast charge, so 3 phase as you stated, or trickle charge is/can be single phase 30A.

If you put 209A into the batteries it would just boil them, not that I would recommend to fast charge them often at 125A either as it would reduce the battery service life tremendously.

The slower you charge a DC battery the longer it will last.

I hope this helps.

All well and good, but I just picked out the Nissan Leaf as a "typical" electric car which, therefore, probably has a "typical" battery capacity (of 24kWh), which is why I used the words "for example". It was just a route to calculating the likely power requirements of the charger shown.

I'm not suggesting that it would be a good idea (or even possible) to charge this particular car at a rate of 48kW, merely that the charger shown would not be capable of performing to its full capacity if its supply came via a domestic 230V 13A socket.

This was in reply to your assertion that "a unit like that could just have a 3 pin plug on it". Maybe I misunderstood your original meaning here.

 

[Earthstore]

Just trying to understand how these things work really, curiosity more than anything I suppose.
After reading some of the green deal thread and Barkers comments today I am glad I have left the industry for the time being.

 

[grantr37]

the Bollard I seen had a touchscreen and a line of multicoloured LED's on it......the supplied lead was so short that it would be a problem as every car has its charging point in a different place, some on the front right wing, some on the front left wing, others on the back left, back right or even on the rear bumper....

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the Bollard I seen had a touchscreen and a line of multicoloured LED's on it......the supplied lead was so short that it would be a problem as every car has its charging point in a different place, some on the front right wing, some on the front left wing, others on the back left, back right or even on the rear bumper....

 

[moggy1968]

unless your going to TT every outside socket and every set of outside lights why do you need to TT this? It's just an outside socket and it only takes the equipotential zone outside the house in the same was as an outside socket ot outside lights, and less so than a detached garage, which, I was told by my assessor and ELECSA does not need to be TT as long as it's not too far from the house (they declined to define 'not too far!'

 

[moggy1968]

Actually 3.6p/mile
or perhaps half this if done overnight on E7?

what this doesn't take into account (and neither does the advertising for the cars, unsuprisingly) is the enormous cost of replacing the batteries in a few years time. That and the high initial cost of these vehicles means they are about the same running costs as a normal mid range car over the average lifetime.

what they also don't tell you is battery performance will deteriorate over time, so although it may get you to work now, it may not in 5 years time.

Also, if you look at whole life emissions rather than just tailpipe emissions, they are considerably more poluting than most other cars out there.

The whole electric car thing is a case of the kings new clothes.

rapid charging is a boost charge to top the battery up, you need to trickle charge it when you get home to fully charge the battery and mainatin it's life expectancy

 

[LightGEN]

As with solar PV, it's all about getting the market moving and production volumes up. I suspect that, five years down the line, replacement batteries will be much cheaper than they are currently. Time will tell.

 

[Fin170]

what this doesn't take into account (and neither does the advertising for the cars, unsuprisingly) is the enormous cost of replacing the batteries in a few years time.
7 years of servicing a porsche or a M5 etc isn't any cheaper (electric cars require less frequent break pad swaps as well), the next 10 years you're going to have start replacing gaskets, sensors, clutches, exhaust& emissions controls (EGRs and DPFs are a good example) etc which you won't on an electric vehicle

what they also don't tell you is battery performance will deteriorate over time, so although it may get you to work now, it may not in 5 years time.
Iirc Tesla guarantees their batteries to x% for 8 years, I use Tesla as the example as they seem to be one of the few companies that are putting serious effort behind it instead of doing conversions of existing cars


Also, if you look at whole life emissions rather than just tailpipe emissions, they are considerably more poluting than most other cars out there.
Only if we are going back to Ni-Mh or Ni-cd batteries (we're not) and going to carry on using coal and gas (hopefully we're not). That argument tends to miss half the point of the move to electric vehicles is because vehicle pollution kills thousands every year, diesel fumes are particularly notorious

bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-17704116
nextbigfuture.com/2011/03/deaths-per-twh-by-energy-source.html

I think as soon as the Li-air battery goes commercial we will see a large uptake in the electric car (basically the cells are almost as energy dense as petrol and are not effected as much by bad charging) and, after the NIC force a course, will mean a lot of business for us.

 

[Richard Burns]

unless your going to TT every outside socket and every set of outside lights why do you need to TT this? It's just an outside socket and it only takes the equipotential zone outside the house in the same was as an outside socket to outside lights, and less so than a detached garage, which, I was told by my assessor and ELECSA does not need to be TT as long as it's not too far from the house (they declined to define 'not too far!'

The IET guidance note says that because in the case of a neutral fault the entire car could become live and due to the large area of potentially live metal they recommend a TT system for EV charging points where the vehicle or charging point may be outside. They also say a risk assessment should be carried out to ensure safety and that no conductive parts of a TNCS system should be within 10m of the TT installation and that the earth potential zone of the earth rod should not interact with the TNCS equipotential zone.

(Ha Ha)

 

[grantr37]

what this doesn't take into account (and neither does the advertising for the cars, unsuprisingly) is the enormous cost of replacing the batteries in a few years time. That and the high initial cost of these vehicles means they are about the same running costs as a normal mid range car over the average lifetime.

what they also don't tell you is battery performance will deteriorate over time, so although it may get you to work now, it may not in 5 years time.

Also, if you look at whole life emissions rather than just tailpipe emissions, they are considerably more poluting than most other cars out there.

The whole electric car thing is a case of the kings new clothes.

rapid charging is a boost charge to top the battery up, you need to trickle charge it when you get home to fully charge the battery and mainatin it's life expectancy

Very Correct, and what about the fact that the Lithium for the Batteries can only be produced on a massive industrial scale by digging up the salt flats in Africa and Bolivia as opposed to small scale extraction from processed sea water? there's already political arguments over that and I can see it leading to the same kind of "angry visits" and "leadership change" the same as oil does just now....the price will go up and up, not down....as the metallic salts are in increasing demand, and once "fund managers" and "portfolio investors" get a hold it will only go up like everything else......


Think about it......how much do these cost as you need them????

Car insurance

Medical insurance

Petrol

Diesel

Heating Diesel

Gas

your Electricity price creeping up every 4 months

Shaving Blades

Postal Services

Mobile phone charges, mobile internet costs if using for work....or, oh dear, watching football on the train like the mobile adverts encourage you to do......?? what's that, £430 for watching tv on the go for an hour...because you went over your 400MB a month limit on your superfast mobile broadband, that they now tell you is only for sending emails of a few KB each, but just really quickly...

Tobacco if you smoke, an Alcoholic beverage if you do not.....and for the kids a can of juice.....what's that? £1.50 for a can of cola??

A pack of 4 AA Batteries how much in some places, maybe £5.79 and they last half a day in a camera before they are used up......not as good as they used to make them, how convenient...


£1.00 for a small standard size chocolate bar that cost 33p 10 years ago? that's because "fund managers" buy cocoa and sugar, hold onto it for a few hours during the night then sell it at 7Am..... sometimes several times before it reaches the end user (factory via shipping company) and sometimes before it is even grown/harvested in some location thousands of miles away.....

if there is any demand at all for anything, these guys get in there and throw a bit of money about to take over the market then they sit back and make the money back 100x over....

the cost of the Batteries will go up and up as there is a lot of money to be made.....

There will also be l@ws brought about to put duty and extra V@T onto the Electricity that you use to charge your car Batteries, they will introduce a separate smart meter for this so you will have 2 meters at home, one to run your house and one to charge your car.......get caught charging your car up duty free (from a plug in the house) and get done in the same way as a road t@x dodger, then there will be "illegal charging points" set up by people selling wind and solar on the side.....and the papers will be full of reports of "illegal, dangerous environment destroying" charging stations getting raided and shut down.....I can see it now.....

 

[moggy1968]

what this doesn't take into account (and neither does the advertising for the cars, unsuprisingly) is the enormous cost of replacing the batteries in a few years time.
7 years of servicing a porsche or a M5 etc isn't any cheaper (electric cars require less frequent break pad swaps as well), the next 10 years you're going to have start replacing gaskets, sensors, clutches, exhaust& emissions controls (EGRs and DPFs are a good example) etc which you won't on an electric vehicle

comparing a Nissan Leaf to a Porsche or M5 is ridiculous, although even those cars would struggle to reach the costs associated with battery replacement over 7 years. A more comparable car such as an astra or civic is never going to get anywhere near and it's very unlikely they would require any gaskets, sensors, Egrs in that time either. (M5s and Porsches don't have DPFs!) Thats without considering the very high initial cost of electric cars. Anyway, my original post wasn't actually comparing running costs, It was suggesting that the actual running costs of electric cars are significantly higher than the manufacturers and adverts would have you believe, as they only look at fuel cost. The depreciation on electric cars will be horrific because the battery replacement problem renders them uneconomic to repair by the second, or possibly even first battery change. If you buy a 7 year old electric car, you know your about to be hit with a very big bill, so the purchase price would have to reflect that. I reckon you'll struggle to give away a 10 year old car! The only people that benefit are the manufacturers because reducing the life expectancy means they can sell more cars. Of course, I'm sure the cosy relationship politicians enjoy with the motor industry has noeffect on the push for electric vehicles.

what they also don't tell you is battery performance will deteriorate over time, so although it may get you to work now, it may not in 5 years time.
Iirc Tesla guarantees their batteries to x% for 8 years, I use Tesla as the example as they seem to be one of the few companies that are putting serious effort behind it instead of doing conversions of existing cars

Ok, so in 8 years time you won't be able to get to work, not 5. woopee do!

Also, if you look at whole life emissions rather than just tailpipe emissions, they are considerably more poluting than most other cars out there.
Only if we are going back to Ni-Mh or Ni-cd batteries (we're not) and going to carry on using coal and gas (hopefully we're not). That argument tends to miss half the point of the move to electric vehicles is because vehicle pollution kills thousands every year, diesel fumes are particularly notorious

All batteries are highly poluting to make and destroy, not just nickle ones, as are vehicles so a vehicle with a built in short life expectancy is by definition a poluting exercise.
It's impossible to attribute a single death to vehicle polution, because we breathe in a multitude of polluting gases from a variety of sources. vehicle polution does not exist in isolation. That includes pollution from houses, 4 times more than that produced by vehicles, industry, oh, and all that industriasl process of producing batteries! Vehicle polution is actually a very small percentage of total airborne polution. In a large city the air taken in through the air intake by a car such as the Panda diesel (I know, a diesel, SHOCKING!) is actually more poluted than the gas that comes out of the exhaust!

The extraction process for the battery technology is hugely poluting and is massively damaging to the environment involving the destruction of huge areas of virgin forest. As above the materials are only available in a very few locations around the world. If you think fossil fuels produce political problems then stand by!!

bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-17704116
nextbigfuture.com/2011/03/deaths-per-twh-by-energy-source.html

I gave up believing the BBC long ago. A journalist starts with a particular axe to grind and will then set out to prove it, regardless of any evidence that may come up to the contrary.

Only the naive and fools believe what journalists tell them!

The fact that an electric car will cover 90% of your needs is irrelevant (actually about 10% of mine but 90% is the average according to the research) because we need our cars to reach 100% of our needs.
I would like to visit my parents 220 miles away. I can't do that in an electric car. I don't think thats unusual. I would like to be able to go on holiday and drive to the continent, I can't do that in an electric car. I actually can't even drive to work and back in one!

I'm not against electric cars, they have some use in a limited number of applications. What I am against is the B.S. that surrounds them and the self righteous piety of some of those that support them.

 

[moggy1968]

The IET guidance note says that because in the case of a neutral fault the entire car could become live and due to the large area of potentially live metal they recommend a TT system for EV charging points where the vehicle or charging point may be outside. They also say a risk assessment should be carried out to ensure safety and that no conductive parts of a TNCS system should be within 10m of the TT installation and that the earth potential zone of the earth rod should not interact with the TNCS equipotential zone.

(Ha Ha)

The neutral fault possibility applies wether the car is in a garage or outside run from an outside charging point or from a hoofing great extension lead, the source of which lies within the equipotential zone! The answer, I would suggest, would be to earth the vehicle during charging via a clamp and spike, yes, I know that doesn't mean equal potential, but it does mean safe earthing of a live vehicle. How long before the first death from a live vehicle?

10m from a conductive part of the equipotential zone, yeh like thats gonna happen.

I agree with your assessment, Ha Ha!

 

[Fin170]

I wouldn't use the leaf as a comparable vehicle, it feels too slapped together for the money ish. Model S vs. M5 and a 911 turbo vs. the roadster. Guess it's not worth mentioning the extraction & refinement of oil (any flavour) is any better by a long shot

And the 8 years covers something like 80% capacity at that period, so 300ish down to 240ish. As for residuals, I remember the same thing being said about diesels 10 years ago

 

[moggy1968]

It's an interesting looking car certainly. I presume not available in the UK yet though? I would be interested in seeing some independant road tests and reports on it.
I don't understand why none of the manufacturers put silicone cells on the car to provide some degree of trickle charging when your parked up outside work in the daytime, instead of that huge glass roof.

 

[grantr37]

They are selling Teslas here starting at £95,000, maybe a few footballers will buy them...

does anybody know if the separate driving licence for Electrically driven vehicles still applies, or is that different now?

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so you set up your own car charger on solar or wind......could that be reckless as well?

http://www.electriciansforums.net/electrical-forum-general-electrical-forum/68016-dodgy-dodgy-dodgy.html

 

[moggy1968]

strewth, thats more in pounds than dollars, hows that work!!!
oh yeh, it's the UK!!!