food for thought

[martysparky]

crazy or possible???


A thought long ago that I might be able to power as a starter to start only a modern self contained steam engine running a turbine to produce electric. being that the engine would produce enough energy to run its self with an electric element producing the required steam as a feedback relationship producing motion. then a second geared turbine ( low resistance) poiwered from the motion producing electricity for other use.

Its a scientific fact that water once boiling needs a lot less energy to keep it boiling than making it boil.


Would that work when put to the empirical test?????


The idea being: using energy to breed energy.

 

[ian.settle1]

Why would you need a starter motor to start a steam engine?

When you have sufficent steam presure the steam engine will start its self, but due to the pressure you would require to do this the boiler would have to be pressure tested and certified by an insurance company before you could use it.

I know what your talking about but it would not be practical as what would you use as the primary heat source to get the steam up to working pressure in the first place.

 

[martysparky]

yes Ian, my mistake the starter motor was meant to be the power source ti initially heat the water.

I'll change it now... Thanks

I have never tried it but would like too... I wonder if it would balance.

I bet the insurance companies would ruin any chance even if a prototype was successful and I bet there would be a whole load of other reasons why it would not be allowed. If everyone had one imagine the loss of tax in this country with extremely low electric bills.

Then again I wouldn't be that different to a good PV system.

 

[Doomed]

This sounds like some form of perpetual motion device, which I'm afraid is impossible.

 

[martysparky]

has this been put to the empirical test?

 

[martysparky]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=us7YB7eiOeQ]YouTube - Perpetual Motion[/ame]

 

[martysparky]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhwQt1tJYa8"]YouTube - Selfrunning free energy machine[/ame]

I bet there is a way to syphon pump the water as a water fall and then save on electric.

good though

 

[timitds]

lol now thats hypnotic
but there is no energy being being taken out of the ball and as basic law of physics energy can only be changed not produced so although the energy in this machine is balanced there is none being removed which is what you would need to produce energy(leccy)
as for your steam engine not dismissing it but surely you would need steam under pressure to power the turbine which would mean a constant reheating of cooled water so cant see how it would produce enough energy outside its own workings. plus how much energy would be used to start it in the first place(to heat the water to boiling) and how much excess energy would be being produced from this machine to replace this before you even get into positive production.

i may well be talking twoddle as i often do

but bored anyway so thought id respond

 

[Bromd123]

in my humble opinion we need to ditch the perpetual motion idea because as has already been said once you draw any energy from it it will inevitable fail. i think we need to be concentrating more on pv as we are millenia behind the most basic lants and trees on harnessing the suns energy, if we could harness even a quater of that energy we wouldnt need anything else at all!

Sorry if i'm ranting but i truly believe that is the only way forward!

 

[timitds]

me too bromd and want to go into that field myself

were getting there our country obviously has some limitations obviously with pv but combined with wind etc is more than doable
but in oz for example they are fitting shed loads and a lot of homes with the use of more and more efficient leccy equipment are heading towards self sufficiency.

and i think in the next 10 years as the cost of energy gas/oil/coal will enevitably rise and the cost of systems comes down it will become more economically viable for the average jo to invest for there own homes.

even right now with the introduction of the new tarrifs just going live it is a pretty sound investment but it is quite a wedge still to lay out for the timescale although the price of systems is falling gradually.

the problem being peoples perception of an investment is if it hasnt paid fir itself in a couple of years its not worth it which for me is pretty shortsighted but understandable.

my earlier post on this was pure boredom to be honest perpetual motion has been explored for many years and the laws of physics just do not allow for a looong list of reasons

 

[martysparky]

there is no energy being being taken out of the ball and as basic law of physics energy can only be changed not produced so although the energy in this machine is balanced there is none being removed which is what you would need to produce energy(leccy)

erm what is the light then??? is that not coming out or being drawn from the machine...

if it was at larger scale there would obviously be more surplus energy so it would be a balance of size to energy required or running as a trickle charger for batteries.

 

[martysparky]

as for your steam engine not dismissing it but surely you would need steam under pressure to power the turbine which would mean a constant reheating of cooled water so cant see how it would produce enough energy outside its own workings. plus how much energy would be used to start it in the first place(to heat the water to boiling) and how much excess energy would be being produced from this machine to replace this before you even get into positive production.

yes pressure, why cooled, water produces steam when its boiling continually until none left or cool.

once started it would only stop for maintenance.


every body boils large amounts of water in there homes every day.

how much energy is a mystery as all is just theoretical as I was bored too.

Thanks though

 

[eskimo39]

I always fancied inventing a solar powered torch that once on illuminated it's own solar cells, thus powering itself. However 27metres of solar cells was difficult to fit on the end of a torch

 

[martysparky]

automatic doors

why not fit dynamos instead and get everyone producing energy as they open them

 

[timitds]

yes pressure, why cooled, water produces steam when its boiling continually until none left or cool.

think you answered your own question there bro for it to be self sustaining you would need to condense the steam to return to the pot therefore cooled or introduce more water and a large pot of water takes a large energy to get it to boiling point i.e kettle

every body boils large amounts of water in there homes every day.

dont really see where your going with that

erm what is the light then??? is that not coming out or being drawn from the machine...

if it was at larger scale there would obviously be more surplus energy so it would be a balance of size to energy required or running as a trickle charger for batteries.

cant really see the light but come on the size of that machine for that output and size does matter with mechanics the larger the greater the mass the greater the friction the greater the inefficiences etc etc

and too be honest we have vast amounts of natural energy ready too be harnessed at much greater efficiency so why not use that instead

this thread has really got me thinking though...................that we REAAALLY have too much time on our hands

but keep up the thinking for every 100 crazy ideas 1 might just work

 

[martysparky]

think you answered your own question there bro for it to be self sustaining you would need to condense the steam to return to the pot therefore cooled or introduce more water and a large pot of water takes a large energy to get it to boiling point i.e kettle

If the engine was in a sealed tank it would build up at the top and fall via gravity and would also remain hot ready for reuse.


people boil water everyday was suggesting about the energy costs of heating water in reference to the water of the device that would not be required to be boiled from an external source very often.


come on the light bulb is clear and bright....look again

 

[martysparky]

and too be honest we have vast amounts of natural energy ready too be harnessed at much greater efficiency so why not use that instead

this thread has really got me thinking though...................that we REAAALLY have too much time on our hands

but keep up the thinking for every 100 crazy ideas 1 might just work

absolutely on both accounts.

Is all that natural energy: wind, sea, water cycle, Earths spin, Earths orbit Perpetual Motion...
just a thought

 

[Doomed]

wind, sea and water cycle are powered by the sun, the earths spin was 'powered up' during the formation of the earth 4.6 billion years ago and is gradually using that energy, hence the length of a day is gradually increasing and the earths orbit is down to its mass balanced against the gravitational force of the sun which were both 'powered up' during the formation of our solar system and are once again slowly losing thier energy.
So no perpetual motion there then. Sorry.

 

[GStueyXR]

1st law of physics: Conservation of Energy

The law of conservation of energy is an empirical law of physics. It states that the total amount of energy in an isolated system remains constant over time (is said to be conserved over time). A consequence of this law is that energy can neither be created nor destroyed, it can only be transformed from one state to another. The only thing that can happen to energy in a closed system is that it can change form, for instance chemical energy can become kinetic energy.

 

[GStueyXR]

In practice, a steam engine exhausting the steam to atmosphere will have an efficiency (including the boiler) of 5%, but with the addition of a condenser the efficiency is greatly improved to 25% or better. A power station with exhaust reheat, etc. will achieve 30% efficiency.

So lets say you put 100KW in to the engnine, assuming you get a 100% efficient turbine (impossible) then you'll get 30KW out.

 

[GStueyXR]

wind, sea and water cycle are powered by the sun, the earths spin was 'powered up' during the formation of the earth 4.6 billion years ago and is gradually using that energy, hence the length of a day is gradually increasing and the earths orbit is down to its mass balanced against the gravitational force of the sun which were both 'powered up' during the formation of our solar system and are once again slowly losing thier energy.
So no perpetual motion there then. Sorry.

Conservation of angular momentum disagrees with this... The earth is not using or losing angular momentum, other gravitational forces acting on it are the only way its rate of spin or orbit will ever change. And whats more, the earth is forever accelerating, seeing as velocity is a vector quantity.

a = v²/r

 

[Doomed]

The rate of spin is definately slowing, coral fossil records and deposits in sandstone from the Jurassic period suggest a 22 hour day.
The acceleration I will bow to your knowledge on.

 

[martysparky]

1st law of physics: Conservation of Energy

The law of conservation of energy is an empirical law of physics. It states that the total amount of energy in an isolated system remains constant over time (is said to be conserved over time). A consequence of this law is that energy can neither be created nor destroyed, it can only be transformed from one state to another. The only thing that can happen to energy in a closed system is that it can change form, for instance chemical energy can become kinetic energy.

Confusion,

We are about to all start driving milk floats with hydrogen power coming on line.

we use electric to convert salt water into hydrogen then hydrogen to make electric.

given that most electric is still made from gas and only a small proportion is renewable wont that just displace one fossil fuel with that extra required from the power companies.

Will that really lower co2?

 

[martysparky]

The rate of spin is definately slowing, coral fossil records and deposits in sandstone from the Jurassic period suggest a 22 hour day.
The acceleration I will bow to your knowledge on.

hmmm interesting stuff.
The earth is moving away from the sun as the system expands widening the orbit. this at some point will start imploding and reversing. so a wider orbit means maybe, just a thought (logical I hope), that a wider longer orbit means extra speed to do the lap and maybe also as adjusting the revolutions (of Earth) speed aligning with it.

 

[martysparky]

wind, sea and water cycle are powered by the sun, the earths spin was 'powered up' during the formation of the earth 4.6 billion years ago and is gradually using that energy, hence the length of a day is gradually increasing and the earths orbit is down to its mass balanced against the gravitational force of the sun which were both 'powered up' during the formation of our solar system and are once again slowly losing thier energy.
So no perpetual motion there then. Sorry.

Any perpetual motion (man made concept) on earth will be gone when all that energy is gone but the wind, sea, etc are constantly moving as any man made machine could. when the wind, sea etc stop none of us will be here and I doubt if those machines would either so are they perpetual motion machines after all then.

Is that what you meant by impossible?

On that basis I reckon we are all living on a perpetual motion machine that is far more advanced than our inventions yet we have used energy from Earth in space ( taking energy from Earth) and we are still here that balance has not been corrupted. Or, would that failure of balance take place when such energy is take outside our solar system????

 

[GStueyXR]

Confusion,

We are about to all start driving milk floats with hydrogen power coming on line.

we use electric to convert salt water into hydrogen then hydrogen to make electric.

given that most electric is still made from gas and only a small proportion is renewable wont that just displace one fossil fuel with that extra required from the power companies.

Will that really lower co2?

But you are not converting energy by seperating the hydrogen.

The point I was making is that no method of converting energy is lossless, and definitely never gainful.

 

[martysparky]

Had a few too many last night me thinks this thread was started light heartedly, nevertheless, that machine shown on you tube was running its self and a lamp so that mus be a gain. Unless it was an illusion and blinded by the light.

 

[martysparky]

we have used energy from Earth in space ( taking energy from Earth) and we are still here that balance has not been corrupted.

we are constantly receiving incoming energy from the sun.

 

[GStueyXR]

Not to forget the mass/energy equivalence... Every spec of space dust puts more energy into the earths reserves.

 

[martysparky]

the question is, I suppose,whats it being used for or how could it be used?