Is there a chance Dual RCD Consumers could be "banned " from rentals soon?

[Mike Johnson]

AI diagnostics could end up doing away with the electrician completely and just the need for a fitter to correct the fault already highlighted by the AI.

 

[Mikegh]

AI diagnostics could end up doing away with the electrician completely and just the need for a fitter to correct the fault already highlighted by the AI.

Could be eventually the boards will refuse to re-energize the circuits unless you've done(or paid for) what the manufacturer says

 

[timhoward]

AI diagnostics could end up doing away with the electrician completely and just the need for a fitter to correct the fault already highlighted by the AI.

Well that is essentially how main dealer garages work.
You've conjured up an image that we'll turn up, plug a scanner into the CU, and see

 

[LukeD]

One of the big plus-points of the Hager AFDD is the bluetooth diagnostics and/or firmware updates for the devices. If something has occasional trips you really will struggle to get to the bottom of it as no MFT (to my knowledge) offer any independent means of testing an AFDD - we are expected to take the self-test as gospel.

That slipped my mind... Ok , we all spend a fortune on another new MFT !!!

 

[nicebutdim]

Well that is essentially how main dealer garages work.
You've conjured up an image that we'll turn up, plug a scanner into the CU, and see
View attachment 110893

I tend to agree that a lot of mechanics have become more like fitters than they ought to be, but the fault finding process can be quite complex. In franchised dealerships they must follow manufacturer guidance or risk not being paid in full for warrantable work. Small garages rely on less complex software, but that's were the skill of fault finding comes to the fore. Most (non-OE) diagnostic software will tell you the area in which a fault has been detected, but not what the actual fault is. It takes skill to know when to replace parts and when that fault code is leading the mechanic to a really simple wiring fault. There's a special place in hell for mechanics who blindly follow fault codes and needlessly throw part after part at vehicles in a desperate attempt at fixing them.

 

[Mike Johnson]

Could be eventually the boards will refuse to re-energize the circuits unless you've done(or paid for) what the manufacturer says

And have the audacity to use a different manufacturers product in their board.

 

[Mike Johnson]

@nicebutdim Still looking for a single module RCBO that monitors both live and neutral got a link to one? They all seem to be line monitoring only and just switch's the neutral whin the line trips.

 

[nicebutdim]

@nicebutdim Still looking for a single module RCBO that monitors both live and neutral got a link to one? They all seem to be line monitoring only and just switch's the neutral whin the line trips.

I don't believe I suggested that such a device exists. From memory I'd mentioned devices which switch both poles. A signifigant number of 2 module RCDs work in exactly the same manner and simply drag neutral along with line.

 

[Mike Johnson]

Even those manufacturers whose wares have traditionally been aimed at the continental European market are moving to single module RCBOs which switch both

European RCBO's I have used and come across monitor both the live and neutral and are dual module, the regulations in Europe would not allow single module in France or Germany.

Bit of confusion between just having the neutral dragged along with the monitored line, than the line and neutral both being monitored for fault.

 

[nicebutdim]

European RCBO's I have used and come across monitor both the live and neutral and are dual module, the regulations in Europe would not allow single module in France or Germany.

Thank you for finding that post as I was certain that my comment would have related to switching, rather than sensing.

Reading further I can see that some ambiguity could be read from it and I'd like to clarify that I was referring to manufacturers whose focus has traditionally been on the continental market now offering single module devices which switch both line and neutral. As you rightly state, these devices would not be accepted in certain European countries and this shows considerable investment in products intended for use in a more limited market. Could this bring about eventual change to Europe's huge domestic distribution boards?

Perhaps look more closely at those DP 2 module RCBOs as it was on this very forum that I first learned that some were SP+N, rather than DP. Since then I've noticed schematics on other 2 module RCBOs which indicate they are also SP+N. Unfortunately this was learned through a simple act of curiosity and I didn't think to memorise or record details of the devices in question.

Edit: I think @pc1966 may have initially been responsible for this discovery.

 

[Mike Johnson]

The dual module/pole Hager RCBO's I have in my UK board sense both line and neutral, unfortunately due to the silly size board installed I have had to resort to single module line only sensing RCBO's for the lighting.

 

[nicebutdim]

The dual module/pole Hager RCBO's I have in my UK board sense both line and neutral, unfortunately due to the silly size board installed I have had to resort to single module line only sensing RCBO's for the lighting.

What I don't understand, and would love someone to explain, is why some countries insist on DP (as opposed to SP+N) RCBOs. If a fault between L&E develops both will trip. If a fault develops between N&E both will detect an L-N imbalance and trip. Faults between L&N could elude both types of device, with overload/overcurrent protection taking over.

There must be a reason for an insistence on true DP protection, but it's not immediately obvious to me.

 

[nicebutdim]

Interestingly I note that Hager's UK page lists all 2 module RCBOs as 1P+N.

RCBOs | Hager UK

Find all Hager products of the range RCBOs

hager.com

 

[pc1966]

There must be a reason for an insistence on true DP protection, but it's not immediately obvious to me.

I think some EU countries used to have two L out of a 3P set, so no neutral as such, or maybe just poor enforcement of polarity (which the UK has had for a long time, well before 13A plugs in the 1940s), so you would need OCPD in both paths.

That also probably predated RCD, so I suspect it has just become an accepted requirement even if not strictly needed if N is strongly enforced.

 

[Mike Johnson]

These Hager RCBO's are listed as two Pole: Electrical Wholesaler - Hager 2 Pole 6kA B-10A 30mA A Class RCBO AD910J -

 

[nicebutdim]

These Hager RCBO's are listed as two Pole: Electrical Wholesaler - Hager 2 Pole 6kA B-10A 30mA A Class RCBO AD910J -

Listed by a wholesaler as 2 pole, but not by Hager.

AD910J | Hager Africa

Looking for AD910J ? Find all the information for Curve B, 6kA type A - 30mA on the official Hager website!

hager.com

I can't help wondering if French and German requirements are for switching of both poles and this issue is one of terminology rather than technology.

 

[Mike Johnson]

It may be something to do with isolation of circuits, but good find in Africa, I take your point, seems they are all only line sensing and the neutral is just dragged along with it.

It's possibly also to do with the multi prong line and neutral bus bars used in most installations and the fact that most CU's do not have a multi terminal neutral bar.

 

[davesparks]

European RCBO's I have used and come across monitor both the live and neutral and are dual module, the regulations in Europe would not allow single module in France or Germany.

Yes because electrical supplies in those countries need protection in both poles.

Many years ago double pole protection was required in the UK when the N-E connection was not necessarily reliable, but now our electricity supplies have the neutral reliably connected to earth and so we only need protection in the line.

 

[Mikegh]

Yes because electrical supplies in those countries need protection in both poles.

Many years ago double pole protection was required in the UK when the N-E connection was not necessarily reliable, but now our electricity supplies have the neutral reliably connected to earth and so we only need protection in the line.

You mean switching the line ?

That's all that's needed

 

[nicebutdim]

You mean switching the line ?

That's all that's needed

That's what I was wondering. Essentially our single module 1P+N RCBO does exactly the same as a 2 module device?