Kitchen recessed downlights

[burnside43]

Hi,

I just want to get a little advise from you guys - I am an amateur but have wired in lights etc around the farm but they have all had earths etc I am about to installed 6 recessed downlights in my kitchen (not in the ceiling but in the pelmet) the down lights are class II double insulated and dont have an earth terminal. I have some spare slots in my consumer unit and instead of linking in from an existing lighting circuit in my attic (its a bungalow) I intend using a spare 6A MCB in my consumer unit I was going to run T&E to the switch which I will locate to the underside of one of the wooden cupboards and then use the T&E to connect the 6 downlights.

question is

• firstly I intend to connect the earth from the consumer unit to the switch but am I right? is it necessary if the lights dont need an earth?
• Second as I intend using T&E to run from the switch to the lights (I have a roll so might as well use) should I just cut the earth back and use only the live and neutral to connect into the switch and to the lights or do I need to still connect the earth and simply have the earth put into a dead end (lego block) at each light?

Thanks in advance

 

[wallyanker]

I would use T&E to every light and switch so there was an earth accessible at all outlets, although you do not need to connect the earth as your fittings are double insulated. If you decide to change the fittings for chrome ones for example at a later date, the earth is there ready

 

[Rockingit]

First question is where are you? Because, if you're in England or Wales then adding a new circuit and/or wiring in kitchens is governed by Part P and will need to be signed off.

But, to answer yours: Run the earth from the consumer unit and terminate into the block with the switch, then leave it UNclipped running off to each of the lights as you never know when it might be needed in the future! T&E 1.5mm or more is fine to use, but 2.5mm might be too big to terminate in whatever fittings the lights have, and remember to use some heat reflective tubing at the ends where the lamps are otherwise they'll melt and go brittle.

 

[Marvo]

As far as I know, in the UK any work in a kitchen is notifiable. I think the light fittings made need to be fire rated as well.

In answer to your question I would connect the earth wire all the way through the circuit using a Wago connector. If the lights you're using are class II there won't be a termination point for it but it will be there at least for future use.

 

[Silly Sausage]

What's the reg that says a CPC must be run to every accessory?

 

[Des 56]

and then use the T&E to connect the 6 downlights.

Please dont do that

Whenever I see twin and earth being thrown in at these downlights for connection to them, I dread to think of the standards of work being carried out by these people elsewhere

There are accessories on the market and heat resistant flex that are suitable for termination points rather than a botch job

 

[Rockingit]

What's the reg that says a CPC must be run to every accessory?

I had it drummed into me years ago: It's better to be looking AT it, than looking FOR it. Think of the future.

 

[Silly Sausage]

I had it drummed into me years ago: It's better to be looking AT it, than looking FOR it. Think of the future.

Goes without saying, I was just wondering what the reg number is.
Haven't memorised the BGB yet...

 

[the oracle]

Sorry to be blunt, BUT , you state you are 'an amateur', by that I take it you are not a qualified electrician? The addition of a new circuit would require an Electrical Installation Certificate, and is notifiable under Part P of the Building Regs. If not a new circuit, and you extend an existing circuit, then the work you have described, if undertaken in a Kitchen, is still notifiable to Building Control, and will require a Minor Works Certificate. If you are competent to do the work described, including the inspection and testing, then crack on, but make sure you notify your local Building Control and send them a copy of your certificate. If not, sorry but get an electrician, but by all means watch and learn! If you are already a 'registered Competent Enterprise' then I'm teaching you to suck eggs. And by the way, no you do not take the c.p.c. to the light fittings if they are Class 2 (double insulated). terminate the c.p.c. using an approved method before entering the fitting.

 

[wallyanker]

At the end of the day Oracle, it sounds like he is doing this in his own home and therefore how do you police what people do at home?

He's gonna do it whether we tell him to or not, so I would rather offer advise so that he will do it safely. We have all done work in our own homes and not notified, I have anyway and yes, we are qualified and know its safe and to current regs. I would rather tell him how to do it safely than him cause harm to himself and his family.

 

[the oracle]

Try 412.2.3.2 Except where Reg 412.1.3 applies (a circuit consisting wholly of Class 2 equipment and double or reinforced insulated cables, and under supervision to prevent future changes) ....... a circuit supplying one or more items of Class II equipment shall have a circuit protective conductor run to and terminated at each point in wiring and at each accessory.

note. this requirement is intended to take account of the possible replacement by the user of Class II equipment by Class I equipment.

Also Reg. 411.3.1.1 ..... you can read that one!

 

[burnside43]

Ok thanks every one, I will run the T&E to each light and at least if changes are made in the future I will have an earth there if its ever needed. I do take on board every thing said about getting an electrician to do this but I am confident enough to do the work and I will call my local building control to get them to inspect my work to keep every thing lagit, its not that im trying to do any of you guys out of work but I like working at the house and doing any thing I can my self I totally appreciate that in the case of electrics I cannot do every thing but I can certainly do most small stuff and this forum is a great place for an amateur to seek advise from you guys so thanks again for the help.

 

[the oracle]

Ah .. yes but ..... should he be doing it? I would not get a book on dentistry and then do my childrens teeth to save money!
I wouldn't set myself up as a counsellor just because I like talking to people.

I understand your empathy and I know only too well what you mean, I come across students all the time who are trying to run before they can walk, especially when it comes to saving some money on a D.I.Y project. However, I have also seen the other side of it, having had 20 years as a part time firefighter tackling fires started by electrical faults, and many years of 'correcting' other peoples work as an electrical contractor, sometimes uncovering potentially lethal mistakes.

I am all for encouraging training and learning in the workplace, but I am also concerned by the number of 'not yet qualified' people trading as electricians, or even the 'Domestic Installers' who can get a nice big NICEIC sticker on their van after less than 10 days training!
It makes a mockery of the three years of basic training that my students undertake, not to mention the additional short courses for Wiring Regs, Inspection & Testing etc. Hence my slight lack of empathy for guys doing DIY..... sorry !

 

[wallyanker]

Totally understand where you are coming from, and know that whether he should be doing it or not, he is still going to do it...lol....But rather than offer no help and then him do it wrong which could result in a fire, I would prefer to offer help knowing that if he follows instructions, the risk of potential fire is reduced.

 

[Rockingit]

I'm with both of you on this one - both are valid viewpoints.

Although, due to the rise of the Electrical Trainee DI, it's actually more than feasible that half the experienced DIY'ers can, will and do a much better job of it anyway!! So to say that a job HAS to be done by someone who can tick the boxes on the scam online system because the DIY'er is incompetent is probably more than a little flawed.

DIY'ers coming on this forum tend to fall into one of two camps - either with enough rope to hang themselves or asking how to tie the knot so that they don't, and on this occasion I feel that the OP is the latter, hence why I've chosen to offer advice. There are many other posts that I read, shudder and walk away from.

 

[burnside43]

Hello,

Sorry for causing such an argument! I have now connected up the circuit and the lights are working fine so thanks. Just picking up on one or two points it was not my intention to ever devalue the training that goes into becoming an electrician Oracle so if thats the impression I gave Im sorry. But Rockingit touched on a valid point "that a job HAS to be done by someone who can tick the boxes on the scam online system" earlier this year I got a quote for changing my comsumer box, I went to a qualified electrician who does alot of work in this part of Northern Ireland and was quoted £600 to change a comsumer box they claimed it would take a full days work and 2 men to complete the job, now while I'm no expert that was extreemly excessive to me. In the end I got a few other quotes and got a fully qualified guy from the forum to do the job which took 2 hours and cost £200 that was including the new consumer box and In the previous house we built the fully qualified electrician employed by the builder managed to cross wire one of our lights a lovely surprise ! - my point is that just as Rockingit said just because some one is qualified doesnt give an automatic guarantee that the work will be done to an acceptable standard or that they are not ripping you off I'm not making a genralisation about all electricians there are alot of very good ones out there but if I do the work (and I appreciate I cant do it all) I know I dont take risks if in doubt I will always call in an expert.

 

[mpspark]

A consumer unit change in 2 hours... I may be wrong (I'm still learning) but doesn't the installation need an initial inspection, then testing when doing this?

 

[burnside43]

mpspark he called on one day took a look at what was involved came on the day fitted a new consumer box the actual fitting only took 2 hours fair enough he tested after but it was no where near the 1 day that the other firm quoted. and a fraction of the price and most other quotes were in or around this level, maybe I'm totally wrong but how can there be such a difference in price and time to do the same job plus a job which was supposedly going to take 2 guys to do?

 

[mpspark]

I would be surprised if it really needed 2 guys to work for a day to do this, however I'm equally surprised your guy managed it on his own in just 2 hours. I can't see how he was able to complete the necessary certificates correctly afterwards unless he also gave the installation a cursory glance at least! He must be very quick to do it in 2 hours imho.

 

[a1guvner]

mpspark he called on one day took a look at what was involved came on the day fitted a new consumer box the actual fitting only took 2 hours fair enough he tested after but it was no where near the 1 day that the other firm quoted. and a fraction of the price and most other quotes were in or around this level, maybe I'm totally wrong but how can there be such a difference in price and time to do the same job plus a job which was supposedly going to take 2 guys to do?

I would recommend you get quotes that actually detail the actual works they are going to undertake, someone might pick up on bonding upgrades, new rods , loaded board with RCBO's ect, then you will be able to do a proper analysis and quantify what you are getting for your money and weed out who is taking the ****