New sub board for shed swa advice.

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bigbob1 said:
You shouldn’t export a DNO earth without their consent. What you do is provide your own! That’s called TT and doing the RIGHT thing. Get over yourself.
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your ----ing in the wind bob.
All them school jobs I’ve done where different buildings exist from the same installation, all the new build student block accommodations I’ve been involved with and army base new builds ,all with the installation earth extended to each building and non TT.
All the jobs I’ve been on and tested etc, don’t recall many being TT where numerous buildings exist but all must be breaking your law then?
 
sparksburnout said:
how the hell does the CPC "vaporise" when the circuit was energised?? If there was a dead short between L-E then the OCPD would have tripped. Sounds a bit iffy to me.
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I dunno, but that was the expert witness evidence provided by the forensic investigation.
If the circuit was repeatedly energised then it may well have blown the cpc away, we don't have adequate detail to know.
What was the fault current, I think it may have been a block of flats?
As she was definitely in a flat, so the sub may have been close.
There was no RCD on the circuit, so the fault would have been at full PFC at that point.
 
With regards to the Emma Shaw case:
The installation was constructed to the 16th edition.
She was electrocuted in 2007.
The ECA were called as expert witness.
A screw fixing plasterboard to metal stud work penetrated a cable, making contact with both the Line and CPC.
Subsequent energisation did cause part of the damaged CPC to be vaporised, which left the unearthed metal stud work live.
The CPS decided there was insufficient evidence to prosecute anyone for manslaughter.
The Coroner did not write to every NICEIC QS, he wrote to the NICEIC and the Chair of the Competent Persons Forum.
Two people, an unqualified Inspector and his QS were prosecuted under HASAWA section 7.
The QS was found guilty and fined £1000.
 
spinlondon said:
With regards to the Emma Shaw case:
The installation was constructed to the 16th edition.
She was electrocuted in 2007.
A screw fixing plasterboard to metal stud work penetrated a cable, making contact with both the Line and CPC.
Subsequent energisation did cause part of the damaged CPC to be vaporised, which left the unearthed metal stud work live.
The CPS decided there was insufficient evidence to prosecute anyone for manslaughter.
The Coroner did not write to every NICEIC QS, he wrote to the NICEIC and the Chair of the Competent Persons Forum.
Two people, an unqualified Inspector and his QS were prosecuted under HASAWA section 7.
The QS was found guilty and fined £1000.
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That is pretty much correct spin.
Under rule 43, the coroner wrote to theNICEIC, and they wrote to all their QS's & PDH's at that point in time.
Or at least they told the Coroner they did, because if they hadn't the Coroners powers could have taken that further.
 
BigBob1.
Have you ever considered actually backing up anything you say with a Regulation or a quote from somewhere?
Citing publications and Regulations that do not agree, or in fact actually disagree with your statements is not sufficient.
 
Ian1981 said:
your ****ing in the wind bob.
All them school jobs I’ve done where different buildings exist from the same installation, all the new build student block accommodations I’ve been involved with and army base new builds ,all with the installation earth extended to each building and non TT.
All the jobs I’ve been on and tested etc, don’t recall many being TT where numerous buildings exist but all must be breaking your law then?
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With designers getting permission to run submains you can p*** in the wind all day long.......because they have a defence. It’s a phone call and an email we do it all the time, it takes 15mins.
And yes they do say no a fair bit.
 
bigbob1 said:
Read up ^^^ Mr IET forum member.
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I take it that’s a no.
I am no longer a member of the forum, and have not been so for some time.
What I find odd, is that I can find Regulations in both ESQCR and the old Electricity Supply Regulations which state the DNOs cannot refuse a connection for an installation which complies with the Wiring Regulations.
I can find publications from The IET and Stroma describing how to export the installation earth to outbuildings.
There is even a video by John Ward detailing how to export the earth.
That’s without really trying.

You on the other hand are unable to find anything at all to back your claims.

Why is this?
 
spinlondon said:
I take it that’s a no.
I am no longer a member of the forum, and have not been so for some time.
What I find odd, is that I can find Regulations in both ESQCR and the old Electricity Supply Regulations which state the DNOs cannot refuse a connection for an installation which complies with the Wiring Regulations.
I can find publications from The IET and Stroma describing how to export the installation earth to outbuildings.
There is even a video by John Ward detailing how to export the earth.
That’s without really trying.

You on the other hand are unable to find anything at all to back your claims.

Why is this?
Click to expand...
They can refuse to provide an earth connection.
spinlondon said:
I take it that’s a no.
I am no longer a member of the forum, and have not been so for some time.
What I find odd, is that I can find Regulations in both ESQCR and the old Electricity Supply Regulations which state the DNOs cannot refuse a connection for an installation which complies with the Wiring Regulations.
I can find publications from The IET and Stroma describing how to export the installation earth to outbuildings.
There is even a video by John Ward detailing how to export the earth.
That’s without really trying.

You on the other hand are unable to find anything at all to back your claims.

Why is this?
Click to expand...
ESQCR section 8 first paragraph.
But it’s okay for you to use their earth?! It’s not a bad thing because when their neutral goes and someone dies they just go ‘he didn’t have permission from us’!!! I can show you a whole estate that was section 24’d because of supplies to garages done by a part P wonder. You are either a really sh*t troll or you genuinely think what you proclaim, which is worrying.
 
Open circuit pen conductors only really an issue on TNCS arrangements tho isn’t it?
An accident can occur with that whether you have extended an equipotential zone to an outbuilding or if it’s just located in the one building containing the installation earth, the point being that the touch voltage should be lower than if you hadn’t provided protective bonding at all.
Show us evidence of this section 24’d site if you please?
 
bigbob1 said:
Yep totally acceptable. Let me guess hdpe pipe? Metal shed extend it.
Use the armour as the cpc....oh no you have to use armour glands ahh a 4 core SWA? Baring in mind that’ll cost more than an earth rod honest to god comedy gold.
#E5
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Sorry @bigbob1...I don't want to come across as rude but could you please put that in English that can be understood? Thanks.
 
spinlondon said:
Why is this?
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As I posted before his just on here to wind up and insult everyone.Why does the IET who publish the regs show in their guidance notes you can export the earth? These E5 members seem to have clubbed together had a badge made (had to redesign it as not to be sued by TFL) to look down on high at us electricians to tell us we are all doing it wrong. For some reason, this Bob thinks he is all above us but no substance. The only one in this group that has got my respect is this Ninger bloke who does some very well presented and explained youtube videos.
Pete, I think that I have an earth rod if you want one.
 
It should only be an issue with open circuit PEN/CNE conductors, but even on presented TN-S supplies these days they are often TN-C-S further upstream.
They annoying thing is the extents that the paying customer (& thus the spark) has to potentially go to so that the DNO's can get away with a lack of maintenance and investment in their networks, so that they can make more profit. Whilst sparks get a bad reputation for being accused of trying to rip off the punter because of the upgrading to earthing and bonding needed.
Eventually the public pays and the DNO's get away with it and make more profit that they can siphon offshore.
 
I don't really get all this, using the example from 2007, or whenever, to back up an argument for not extending a supply from a tncs system. It's not even an example of a neutral failure in such an installation (which is basically the argument for not extending). That is generally a problem caused by DNO ineptitude and, as such, should be down to them.
 
anthonybragg said:
As I posted before his just on here to wind up and insult everyone.Why does the IET who publish the regs show in their guidance notes you can export the earth? These E5 members seem to have clubbed together had a badge made (had to redesign it as not to be sued by TFL) to look down on high at us electricians to tell us we are all doing it wrong. For some reason, this Bob thinks he is all above us but no substance. The only one in this group that has got my respect is this Ninger bloke who does some very well presented and explained youtube videos.
Pete, I think that I have an earth rod if you want one.
Click to expand...
Sparkyninja he is a member on here widdler is his forum name.
Well informed YouTube videos , educational and a fellow north easterner!
 
anthonybragg said:
As I posted before his just on here to wind up and insult everyone.Why does the IET who publish the regs show in their guidance notes you can export the earth? These E5 members seem to have clubbed together had a badge made (had to redesign it as not to be sued by TFL) to look down on high at us electricians to tell us we are all doing it wrong. For some reason, this Bob thinks he is all above us but no substance. The only one in this group that has got my respect is this Ninger bloke who does some very well presented and explained youtube videos.
Pete, I think that I have an earth rod if you want one.
Click to expand...

There is not necessarily a problem with exporting an earth if it's done correctly.
I think that there is some misunderstanding with regard to this, and yes there is a lot of guidance on doing this.
I think that the discussions with regard to the exporting earths has been quite vociferous and also, I think that the issue of exporting a PME earth is distracting from the rest of the thread, because it was not originally anything to do with exporting earths, merely about earthing of SWA & where.
Now that applies even within an equipotential zone.

Can we get an understanding that HASAWA and EAWR apply to domestic works when they are being done, and the installation that is left behind afterwards, now that it seems the legal case has brought enlightenment?

I would like to bring this to a close, but, until the application of the law is understood and agreed, then I don't see how this can be done.
 
ipf said:
If so, what's it got to do with an external supply?
Just bad workmanship, surely, giving someone the opportunity to screw through a cable in such circumstances.
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Ah, but some trades like to use 100mm screws when a 20 is all that's required ;-) I once had a fault while testing a new installation, turned out to be the fault of the plasterers who picked up the Paslode and fired 50mm brads into my cables while fixing edge bead.
 
[QUOTE="
I can find publications from The IET and Stroma describing how to export the installation earth to outbuildings.
There is even a video by John Ward detailing how to export the earth.
That’s without really trying.

You on the other hand are unable to find anything at all to back your claims.

Why is this?[/QUOTE]

I can go one better. I've exported the suppliers earth AND stuck in an earth stake just for good measure! I must've killed countless innocents during the past 30 years of meddling with electrics! Hang on, is that the police at my door?
 
bigbob1 said:
They can refuse to provide an earth connection.

ESQCR section 8 first paragraph.
But it’s okay for you to use their earth?! It’s not a bad thing because when their neutral goes and someone dies they just go ‘he didn’t have permission from us’!!! I can show you a whole estate that was section 24’d because of supplies to garages done by a part P wonder. You are either a really sh*t troll or you genuinely think what you proclaim, which is worrying.
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Oh yeah, of course.
8.—(1) A generator or distributor shall ensure that, so far as is reasonably practicable, his network does not become disconnected from earth in the event of any foreseeable current due to a fault.
 
This is from Section 24 of ESQCR:
“(4) Unless he can reasonably conclude that it is inappropriate for reasons of safety, a distributor shall, when providing a new connection at low voltage, make available his supply neutral conductor or, if appropriate, the protective conductor of his network for connection to the protective conductor of the consumer’s installation.”
That’s a statutory requirement, the DNO must by law allow a consumer to connect their installation earth to the network neutral or in the case of TN-S the network CPC.
Yes the DNO can refuse connection, but only if the installation does not comply with BS7671 or for safety reasons or if it will disrupt the network.
An Installation that complies with BS7671 is deemed to be safe for connection.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I expect members to get a bit cross and even a bit rude with other members who clearly don't know what they are talking about, sometimes we just can't help it! However, I would be really disappointed if the mods allowed their emotions to get the better of them and take sides against the (albeit silly in this case) minority (no names mentioned).
Good on you mods for remaining impartial so far in this thread :)
 
I can go one better. I've exported the suppliers earth AND stuck in an earth stake just for good measure! I must've killed countless innocents during the past 30 years of meddling with electrics! Hang on, is that the police at my door?[/QUOTE]



Aye, all sorts of bugs whilst staking, I'll wager..:)
 
My my, a lot of posts since I last looked. I notice there is still no shred of evidence of this mythical rule that says all outbuildings must be TT'd though. Unless I've missed it?
 
DPG said:
My my, a lot of posts since I last looked. I notice there is still no shred of evidence of this mythical rule that says all outbuildings must be TT'd though. Unless I've missed it?
Click to expand...

That's funny ... I thought the disagreement was about which end of the swa was connected to earth... Irrespective of the earthing arrangement of the origin or out building !
 
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