NICEIC MCS installer scheme

[sambotc]

Does anybody know if this fufills the requirement for Part P registration, or do you need to be a domestic installer as well therefore have to pay for both?

Also how do elecsa and NAPIT compare to NICEIC, both cost and working with them?

Any pro's or cons you can throw at me and i'm all ears. Coming from a heating background, where each fuel only has 1 competence persons scheme available, having a choice with electrical has thrown me a bit!

 

[JulianC]

Was with Elecsa for Part P before getting MCS and stuck with them due to big discount if taking out both MCS and Part P registration together. Initially went with Elecsa 'cos I found their attitude quite refreshing and NICEIC up their own bottoms. Never considered Napit for some reason...

 

[moggy1968]

I've got my ELECSA inspection coming up. I fully expect to bomb out on my paper trail. does anyone know if thats the case is there anything to stop me reapplying, say with napit? Would be easier than sorting out all the non conformities!
found out today I had been taken off ELECSA part P list for my electrical company. They received a phone call saying I had ceased trading, which as I have just booked and paid for both my reassessments seemed unlikely!
I suggested it might be an idea to contact a trader before taking them off their lists!!

 

[sambotc]

Thanks for the reply, funnily enough I also get that impression from dealing with them occasionally through the firm I used to work for. I do get the feeling that they have a slightly better appearance in the public eye as they are more widely recognised? Is that something to be concerned about, or is it nonsense?

 

[moggy1968]

I tend to agree NICEIC are a bit up themselves. It's what stopped me joining. I thought about it for local authority work but couldn't bring myself to do it.

 

[Eco Deal]

I use NAPIT for MCS and NICEIC for part P

 

[yellowvanman]

I've got my ELECSA inspection coming up. I fully expect to bomb out on my paper trail. does anyone know if thats the case is there anything to stop me reapplying, say with napit?

Whoever you have your inspection with they will all be comparing it with the same MCS001 requirements, they just tend to have their own points they concentrate on.

Your 1st inspection would have been your easiest because you'd have just done one install and just started, paperwork all simple and in one folder.

Now you've had a whole year, you'll have had numerous internal review meetings (not), suppliers, sub contractors (scaffolders, structural engineers, roofers etc etc), project folders, handover folders, calibration logs, test certificates, all backed up of course and neatly stored in your office ready for inspection and able to put your hand to at any time to prove an answer to a question.

If he's any good (or bad which ever way you look at it) he'll take 1 or 2 jobs at random and go through them with a fine toothcomb, asking for proof you've done this and that, and then go and look at the job itself and ask you allsorts of technical questions.

Not trying to put the wind up you!:smiley2:

 

[dansk]

but its a good thing also, at least you know your on the right track.

 

[moggy1968]

Thats what I figured, which is why I am expecting rather a lot of non conformities!!
The technical side I can handle but the paperwork is an issue.
so I figure if ELECSA make it too hard for me why not just go with someone else and start from scratch again, as I already have all the starter paperwork in place.
I'm afraid I don't regard all this nonsence as a good thing, it's a waste of time.

 

[dansk]

no the paperwork isnt a good thing, but an inspection is, it an oppertunity to talk to the inspector and also i like to know that what im doing is right, i dont lke jumping through hoops just for the sake of it.

 

[Ant Standring]

Does anybody know if this fufills the requirement for Part P registration, or do you need to be a domestic installer as well therefore have to pay for both?

Also how do elecsa and NAPIT compare to NICEIC, both cost and working with them?

Any pro's or cons you can throw at me and i'm all ears. Coming from a heating background, where each fuel only has 1 competence persons scheme available, having a choice with electrical has thrown me a bit!

Hi Sambotc

Please contact NAPIT on 0845 543 0330 for some obligation-free advice

Ant@NAPIT

 

[MCS Renewables]

We were with NICEIC for fifteen years starting in the early 80`s. Eventually got fed up with the annual inspections by engineers/ salesmen insisting I had expensive publications on wiring petrol stations and oil rigs etc as membership necessities.

Applied and got accepted by the ECA, best thing I have ever done. Superb contractor support and first choice for councils, government bodies etc.

We then had Elecsa foisted on us as ECA part P body and so had MCS (three technologies and Part P) with them in April 2010. Back in the days when MCS was hard to get !

Inspector Mark Mc. was superb but the ELECSA organisation is a shambles ! Tried to invoice me for wind turbines in April 2011 and got very queer when I questioned the amount and the fact I had heat pumps not wind. Also expensive compared to NAPIT who did a package price and reduced prices from year 2.

We swopped to NAPIT from April 2011 for thee MCS technologies and Part P and have retained our ECA membership.
Could not be happier, Superb back up , staightforward website and sensible prices. We even have the directors mobile phone numbers in case of problems.

Having been in all three its NAPIT by a landslide and ECA if you meet the grade.

My only complaint about all of the bodies is that they do very little to go after the rogues and people claiming memberships they do not have etc etc.
We would also prefer an industry where one week wonders and carreer change chancers could not get a membership quite so easily which is the case with the ECA.
A one week course and then Domestic installer status is an insult to tradespeople who served 3-6 year apprentiships.

 

[moggy1968]

I reported a rogue memeber to ELECSA. A list of breaches of regulations a mile long. They weren't interested at all, they said it wasn't their responsibility to police their members, which I find a bit bizzare.

MCS renewables - please rmember there are other routes to qualification than an apprentice training, and not a 1 week course. I've seen some truly shabby work carried out by time served electricians, but have employed electricians trained by other means and they were superb. It should come down to have you the skills and knowledge to do the work and do you work to a sufficiently high standard. The assessment should (but doesn't) prove that.

I do agree though that the entry standards should be higher. The guy I reported was foreign and clearly had no understanding of the regs or even how a ring circuit works so how he ever got through an assessment I don't know.

 

[powervan]

niceic for both! my inspectors (part p) pain in backside gets me to do same tests every yr! asks same questions! treats me like a kid! only been a spark for 30yrs!!! mcs inspector paperwork pain! what he be like on 2nd visit i dread to think! i may go napit both next time as the DOMESTIC only part of niceic pees me off when napit gives u full scope! i was full niceic for yrs but 3 jobs to show (took all day) THEY DONT LIVE IN REAL WORLD!! sole trader not massive company who got someone to spend all day with them!!

 

[Markc]

I firmly believe the NICEIC has seriously lost their way in the last 7 years since Part P. NICEIC was seen as a measure of excellence. Yes like any scheme there's the good, the bad and the ugly (I fall into the ugly) but being an NICEIC Approved Contractor stood you apart from the rest.

In one shape or another I have been in the NICEIC for 20years and up to 5 years ago happily so. It had always been my opportunity to sit and discuss changes, technical issues and ideas with an area engineer who knew me and my business as well as having been there and done that. Open minded discussions batting ideas about without the need to mince words or worry about the questions being asked. I had know our area engineer for a number of years and had always respected what he had to say and the input he had made. My annual inspection was a half day to actually look forward to. The ability to show off some work that had been completed and the opportunity to discuss variations on the theme.

Since the NICEIC took over the world and opened up into an all in one stop shop including gas etc they have lost their way. They certainly do not represent anything like the company they once was. Their sole aim is to lift as much cash out of my pocket as possible. This is proven by the amount of sales material they shuff at me in the form of emails and flyer's. I'm sure I do not need there tool hire services at over inflated prices nor do I wish to have a gas analyser! They are so far behind all the time as well. The new 17th edition including amendments has not been sprung on any of us yet the NICEIC announced they will allow us to use some certificates for a further six months as they have not produced any as yet. But no surprise as we are still waiting for the DC commissioning certs for 2 years so far as well!

I am not going to lay the need or requirements of the MCS at the NICEIC's door however I certainly do have beef with our inspector who's own perception of the requirements seemed to over rule common sense. I am not interested in knowing how 99% of your installers apparently number there forms for the QMS. I don't. I am not interested in knowing your opinion on who we should have in our meetings and I certainly do not agree that I need to discuss with a potential client the affect of if a neighbor was to build a three story extension to their property and the affect the shade will have! I might as well discuss what would happen if the world was to end next Friday!

The opportunity is there for the NICEIC to become a true leader in it's field but not by proceeding down the road it has done for the last 7 years. Stop think and listen to those who are paying your wages, your accredited contractors. Bring back the time when we were listened to and not chastised for asking the question. Support the electrical industry as an individual entity and not as part of the global empire you are trying to build and may be just may be the contractors will help support you.

I have to say today with a new van on the drive all sign written up I do not have any NICEIC logos on it and my thoughts on applying some are very unsettled. I know what it means today and it is not something I am now proud of having. It is nothing more than a necessity for some long time held contracts. If it were not for them I would not of been paying your fees for the past years. from a customers point of view in the domestic field it is also meaningless. I am still amazed about how few domestic jobs I have seen know about the requirements of Part P and those that do not comply or not had any form of certification or compliance certification. but Part P rant will be for another time.

 

[Gavin A]

We just had our second MCS assessment with NAPIT for solar PV and thermal with an ex gas engineer as our assessor.

desktop assessment for solar thermal that basically amounted to nothing - no questions at all about the actual installation process or anythiing, just checking we had all the relevant paperwork in place. 1 site assessment for PV, in which he wanted to check we'd used 2 screws to mount each bracket, but wouldn't go up a ladder, and insisted we needed to supply him with a picture showing the 2 screws in place... can't fathom why they can't let you know in advance if they want a picture of something like this, it's not like we can be taking pictures of every bracket we mount (as he suggested we should).

Main issue now though is they want us to either have a structural surveyor sign off on each job, or a time served roofer. Seems like they're covering their arses because of 1 roof that blew off last year - that's 1 out of 200,000, and none that I know of during the recent gales, but we now all have to add at least £100 to each job just for a desktop assessment by some unqualified admin worker with a spreadsheet. I can't see any time served roofers holding the professional indemnity insurance needed to issue this sort of advice / sign off of other peoples work.

I've no idea when they'll get a spark out to assess out 3 sparks for the CPS scheme that should have been done at the same time.

still, must keep jumping through the hoops eh.

 

[powervan]

NICEIC ref stickers ! yes agree i dont advertise them! as u said i was proud but not anymore! STRUCTUAL survey well yes like u say another £100 with measurements u give? so is it a TRUE STRUCTUAL survey??REF pic of 2 screws in brackets??????????? well im affraid its another case of IF PAPERWORK IS CORRECT(even if job is rough) PAPERWORK PAPERWORK PAPERWORK! lets get back to QUALITY QUALITY QUALITY WORKMANSHIP WORKMANSHIP WORKMANSHIP!

 

[Gavin A]

I totally agree, we've built our reputation on quality and workmanship, and we do refer jobs to proper structural engineers to do proper surveys if we've assessed it ourselves and in our judgement there's a potential problem. I just don't see the point in having to have structural reports done on every single job even if it's exactly the same build as the house next door (which was an example I used with the Napit inspector).

It also goes against the guidance Napit published themselves as far as I can see.

Still, if it's got to be done then it's got to be done, and should be fairly easy for us as we've always taken all the roof support measurements at the initial site survey stage anyway.

 

[SRE]

Main issue now though is they want us to either have a structural surveyor sign off on each job, or a time served roofer.

We've always done a structural survey, simple jobs we get a desktop done, but most have a visit by a structural surveyor and are covered by his indemnity insurance. Makes us look more prefessional and we rarely have complaints about the extra cost.