Notches or Holes, clip or not to clip?

[Squid]

He must be on that polish 95% gear he posted a link to if he thinks notching is quicker than drilling ... Did I read a post that you have the Milwaukee hole hawg?

Thought you where a sparks not a plumber. You need some of my gear lol.

 

[ipf]

He must be on that polish 95% gear he posted a link to if he thinks notching is quicker than drilling ... Did I read a post that you have the Milwaukee hole hawg?

Is that another name for a brace and bit?

 

[willy fixit]

Deleted as I had not noticed the other appropriately derogatory comments regarding SWDs plumbing past

 

[PEG]

I did have a plumber (old school) show me how he got 15mm copper,across joists,through drilled holes. He did have to drill two supplementary holes,and stick a hardwood fid,in each end...but he used the method regularly...worked it out?

He reckoned since slip conduit wasn't needed,with t&e,sparks had it easy

 

[ferg]

Straight through the external walls

 

[PEG]

Straight through the external walls

Not a bad guess,but would be troublesome,regarding access to solder,and frost proofing...

 

[Squid]

I did have a plumber (old school) show me how he got 15mm copper,across joists,through drilled holes. He did have to drill two supplementary holes,and stick a hardwood fid,in each end...but he used the method regularly...worked it out?

He reckoned since slip conduit wasn't needed,with t&e,sparks had it easy

Hammered the pipe flat and cut notches...........

 

[chris murphy]

Don't forget 'proper' notch cover plates are available, eg: 52mm x 73mm Safeplate - Protect Pipes & Cables - https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/TLSP1.html?source=adwords&ad_position=1o1&ad_id=45425533757&placement=&kw=&network=g&matchtype=&ad_type=pla&product_id=TLSP1&product_partition_id=174047055187&test=finalurl_v2&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI_b6gu5Hu2AIVUrbACh20nwzMEAQYASABEgIrD_D_BwE

Hello DPG,

As I am sure that You / We all know - when these plates are used you have to notch the size and thickness of the plate out of the joist to fit them flat with the top of the joist.

Otherwise they would hold the Floorboards up from the joist and this would cause creaking floorboards as they loosen the nails / screws after a period of time being walked over.

Because the plates are thick enough to resist penetration by a nail they are thick enough to cause a problem with laying the Floorboards unless they are notched into the joists.

Even with some new builds where Flooring Grade Chipboard seems to be the favourite specification for Flooring these plates could still cause a problem.

They are not fitted as the picture shows on the webpage - which is just `nailed` in position on the top of the joist.

I mention this for possible future readers of this thread who are not Electricians, Heating / Gas Engineers or Plumbers.

Regards,

Chris

 

[Toneyz]

The houses are flimsy. The lofts look like a burst box of matches.

I remember doing new houses at a site and another housebuilder on the other side of the road fitting mock fiberglass chimneys to the houses couldn't believe what I was seeing.

 

[Toneyz]

On new builds, I am surprised that there is no requirement to clearly mark the floor boards to show cable and pipe runs...

In the past,I've seen it done for short sections of such runs through door ways ect, but I think that was down to the owner rather than the contractors/builders..

In the past when new houses had traditional joists rather than the TJI joists of today the plumber's pipes were notched into the top of the joists chippy then put chipboard floor sheets down and always from my experience they marked the floor where the pipes were saved them nailing them and us drilling them from above. I used to mark the floor each side of a stud and walls where the cables ran as so chippy did not nail when putting on skirting.

 

[johnduffell]

As @Pete999 , if a metal plate is fitted it is fine. If a joist has been notched it will quite apparent the floorboard has been up and it would take some kind of numpty to bang nails in without careful investigation

I gave you an "optimistic" there - if you ask around it doesn't take long to find a stack of weekend DIYers who have needed to fix a loose floorboard and not wondered why there was a screw missing Not sure numpty is the word I'd use, maybe just inexperienced and possibly being hassled to do a job they've not encountered before!
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=nail+through+pipe+floorboard

 

[FatAlan]

Bought a few of these but as stated above they will need insetting themselves to enable the floorboards to fit back flush.

 

[EbolaSideRoom]

Yep, find a drill and a bit to fit in between the joist so you can drill a level hole or just run a skill saw across the top twice. i know whats quicker especially through 100 year old wood.

Respectfully, you’re buying the wrong tools....https://www.milwaukeetool.com/power-tools/cordless/2707-22

 

[GB.Kayak]

more effort to notch then it is drill a hole
if the hole is drilled in correct place- less likely to have a screw/nail go through it than if it was in a notch (unless you ues a metal plate)

always try get a few clips in under the floorboards to keep it off the plasterboard and alway from any screws etc- but impossible to clip in on its full run if its a rewire to an exisitng house and you only needed to take up a few boards- otherwise you will end up taking up all the poxy floorboards in the house!

Sometimes it is more effort to drill a hole ... in Victorian properties in Scotland ... not sure whether it goes further afield ... there was a practice of installing 'deafening' or 'deadening'. Strips of wood are nailed to the joists at approximately mid height and thin boards are laid between the joists with their ends resting on the strips at each side. The boards are then covered with a very 'rough' lime mortar. I believe the purpose of this practice was to reduce noise transfer. It makes the drilling of holes at mid joist height a much more involved process when this material needs to be cleared away before piercing the joists.

 

[JK-Electrical]

The way new builds are thrown up these days, I seriously doubt that there is time to mark where pipes and cables are, that is unless it's specified and paid for, stuff is thrown in, get paid and Foxtrot Oscar on to the next job, "not my fault if some Muppet nails or screw through a Pipe or cable, is it Boss?" Not much pride taken in the majority of new builds these days, and that includes some, not all, so called Electricians I'm afraid, how many new builds are wired using Mates and Apprentices, without any supervision.

I agree. I did an EICR on a 10 year-old property last week and discovered that one of the live conductors of the RFC supplying the lower-level sockets of the property had been connected to the MCB for the RFC supplying the upper-level sockets of the property and vice-versa. How this error wasn't detected during the initial end-to-end tests on both circuits beats me.

 

[GB.Kayak]

I agree. I did an EICR on a 10 year-old property last week and discovered that one of the live conductors of the RFC supplying the lower-level sockets of the property had been connected to the MCB for the RFC supplying the upper-level sockets of the property and vice-versa. How this error wasn't detected during the initial end-to-end tests on both circuits beats me.

When I 'checked out' the electrical system in the property that I am in at the moment, I discovered that one of the socket circuits was connected to 2 separate MCBs! It took a while to trace down why the circuit appeared to be permanently 'on' whichever MCB I switched off.

 

[JK-Electrical]

When I 'checked out' the electrical system in the property that I am in at the moment, I discovered that one of the socket circuits was connected to 2 separate MCBs! It took a while to trace down why the circuit appeared to be permanently 'on' whichever MCB I switched off.

As I've encountered this very same issue several times in the past, I realised straight away that there was a cross-connection between the two RFCs. This was confirmed by switching both MCBs off then doing end-to-end tests on both circuits.

 

[chris murphy]

Sometimes it is more effort to drill a hole ... in Victorian properties in Scotland ... not sure whether it goes further afield ... there was a practice of installing 'deafening' or 'deadening'. Strips of wood are nailed to the joists at approximately mid height and thin boards are laid between the joists with their ends resting on the strips at each side. The boards are then covered with a very 'rough' lime mortar. I believe the purpose of this practice was to reduce noise transfer. It makes the drilling of holes at mid joist height a much more involved process when this material needs to be cleared away before piercing the joists.

Hello GB.Kayak,

I found out about `Deafening` about 27 years ago when my Business partner and I went up to Edinburgh to carry out installation of a very large `Domestic` Heating system containing approximately 50 Radiators - build the Boiler from parts in the Basement - a complete re-plumb including 6 Bathrooms and 4 x 450 litre Hot Water Cylinders in a very large House that had been bought by a very good Friend of ours.

Although it was just a Big Family Home there was nothing `Domestic` about the Heating or Plumbing in that House !

I had previously visited Edinburgh / the House and spent a Week measuring up and making notes, sketches and taking photographs and some videos to get enough information to design the Heating and Plumbing systems and place Material Orders when I went back Home.

Because the Floorboards were `irreplaceable` - 12" wide x 1" thick highly polished Oak it had been agreed that although We were `good at taking up Floorboards` - a `Joiner` / Furniture Quality Carpenter was going to be engaged to take up all the Boards that we would require and on my `Survey visit` I identified most of the pipe runs and sections of Floorboards that we needed lifting.

I describe the above about the Floorboards because it meant that I had never been able to lift a Board during the Week that I was at the House - all I `knew` was that there should be plenty of room under the Floors as some of the Joists were 15" on the Ground and First Floors and were 12" on the Second Floor.

From my brief description of the Heating & Plumbing systems You might be able to imagine the `Hundreds of Metres` of Copper pipe to be installed.

Can You imagine my `Shock` when we arrived to start work on Day 1 and found the `Deafening` that You described under every Floorboard / between every Joist - level with the top of every Joist !

We then had to create Pipe runs through the `Deafening` - although we had Labourers on the job and we found that channels could be `grooved` through the material using wood battening and a hammer the `Deafening` added a lot of money to the Labour of the job.

We also needed a lot more Floorboards taken up by the `Furniture Maker Carpenter` to enable these channels to be created.

As We were doing the work / working away from Home as a favour for our good Friend we did not lose any money on the job - although we were working on `Mates Rates` and staying at his Family`s Home - He paid for the Labourers to create our Pipe channels.

However if we were working on a Quote basis for a Client / Building Contractor we would have had a large wage bill for extra Labour to create the pipework channels in the `Deafening`.

That was the biggest `surprise` that I have ever had on any Job and it was a very Big Job regarding the pipework runs !

Sorry that this message became so Long winded.

Regards,

Chris

 

[Generator]

What's all this about 'notching'? - I thought cables had to be at least 5omm from the top or bottom of a joist? - that makes an awfully deep notch! - probably seriously weakens the joists. Isn't that why cables are passed through drilled holes? Pipes are ok - you just get wet!
If you cover a cable with a metal plate it should also be earthed, at the same rating as the circuit CPC. Better to drill holes - use a right angle drill. I bet a good 'numpty' could drive a nail through a protection plate - if it bends he could drill it for a woodscrew!

 

[Pete999]

What's all this about 'notching'? - I thought cables had to be at least 5omm from the top or bottom of a joist? - that makes an awfully deep notch! - probably seriously weakens the joists. Isn't that why cables are passed through drilled holes? Pipes are ok - you just get wet!
If you cover a cable with a metal plate it should also be earthed, at the same rating as the circuit CPC. Better to drill holes - use a right angle drill. I bet a good 'numpty' could drive a nail through a protection plate - if it bends he could drill it for a woodscrew!

You mean bonded surely? self tappers would be best if you are fixing to the cover plate.