Plastic consumer units and how to code them

[Soi disant]

Since lockdown every day is a Saturday. Or a wet Sunday in Rhyl.

 

[Lister1987]

They (if working) may well protect you from electrocution - that's not the same as stopping you getting a shock of course...

From a quick google, seems like electrocution seems to be rare in domestic settings fortunately (< 10 per year), despite the state of some of the installations we see...

Not sure what that says about the relative risks of electricity compared to simple things like stairs that kill plenty of people though.

More people die from electrical fires than electric shock and yet little thought is given to fault currents and fire, all that emphasis is on RCDs as a magic bullet that will magically negate ---- electrical design

 

[Soi disant]

More people die from electrical fires fires decreed by the fire brigade investigators to have been electrical than electric shock

Fixed it for ya.

 

[LastManOnline]

They (if working) may well protect you from electrocution - that's not the same as stopping you getting a shock of course...

If working properly (average operation time 20ms) severity of shock will be significantly reduced

From a quick google, seems like electrocution seems to be rare in domestic settings fortunately (< 10 per year), despite the state of some of the installations we see...

It is (fortunately) rare. Its strange that we tolerate hundreds of road deaths every year as "normal" but a death by electrocution gets headlines

 

[Soi disant]

Its strange that we tolerate hundreds of road deaths every year as "normal"

It's actually thousands.

 

[Mike Johnson]

Probably because electrocution has become a rarity, road deaths are an every day occurrence unfortunately.

 

[LastManOnline]

all that emphasis is on RCDs as a magic bullet that will magically negate ---- electrical design

Have noticed how the rcd, s "reputation" varies from country to country, celebrated in one, maligned in the other.
However, whichever way you look at them, they are your only hope in a number of dangerous situations that no other safety measures can negate. Ultimately we have to ask ourselves if those risks are worth spending 20 quid on.
One other point I would like to highlight is the sometimes undervalued role they play in fire prevention. Apart from detecting line to earth arcing greater that 30 milliamps, bear in mind that many line to earth faults will be detected by either an rcd at an early stage of deterioration(heating elements) or by an mcb/fuse at a much later stage of deterioration. The major difference is the degree of current required to clear the fault. Will it be milliamps or hundreds of amps?
In the latter the risk of a potential fire is greatly increased

 

[nicebutdim]

It is (fortunately) rare. Its strange that we tolerate hundreds of road deaths every year as "normal" but a death by electrocution gets headlines

Might be down to the fact that driving licences are easily obtained by anyone who can demonstrate a very basic level of ability. If training cost thousands of pounds and took place over several years, with rigourous assessment of every stage, I'm sure road deaths would be significantly lower.

No one is allowed to perform brain surgery after answering some multiple choice questions, and proving they know which end of a scalpel to hold, yet it seems that people believe they have a God given right to wield several hundred kg of vehicle with impunity.

 

[Soi disant]

Might be down to the fact that driving licences are easily obtained by anyone who can demonstrate a very basic level of ability.

Unlike a qualification to wire up houses.

Oh, hang on a minute....

 

[nicebutdim]

Unlike a qualification to wire up houses.

Oh, hang on a minute....

In theory, that's how it works in most of the UK. Of course, I could expand upon that earlier analogy by including people who drive without a licence or when unfit to do so...

 

[Soi disant]

So in most of the UK a "qualification" to "allow" house wiring is not easily obtained by anyone who can demonstrate a very basic level of ability?

 

[DPG]

So in most of the UK a "qualification" to "allow" house wiring is not easily obtained by anyone who can demonstrate a very basic level of ability?

Is it a riddle?

 

[nicebutdim]

So in most of the UK a "qualification" to "allow" house wiring is not easily obtained by anyone who can demonstrate a very basic level of ability?

The difference would be that domestic installers must demonstrate some understanding of electrical principles, whereas no one is required to learn basic physics before taking to the road.

 

[Soi disant]

Is it a riddle?

I didn't think so.

I'll start again.

Might be down to the fact that driving licences are easily obtained by anyone who can demonstrate a very basic level of ability.

[sarcasm]Unlike a qualification to wire up houses.[/sarcasm]

 

[Soi disant]

The difference would be that domestic installers must demonstrate some understanding of electrical principles,

I'm afraid the evidence suggests otherwise.

 

[nicebutdim]

I'm afraid the evidence suggests otherwise.

In order to qualify they must do exactly that. It may be that the required level of understanding is less than ideal, or less than you might like, but nonetheless those requirements are in place.

 

[DPG]

I'm going to have another IPA, and reassess the situation.

Note, I have had 6 drinks and I am still puntuating correctly.

 

[UNG]

The difference would be that domestic installers must demonstrate some understanding of electrical principles, whereas no one is required to learn basic physics before taking to the road.

You mean the principles and physics of connecting a socket, light switch or a pendant lampholder

I was always told until you pass your driving test you don't learn to drive and the same goes for the electrical industry until you finish your apprenticeship and you are on your own do you learn how to be an electrician as the decision making comes down to you

 

[nicebutdim]

You mean the principles and physics of connecting a socket, light switch or a pendant lampholder

I was always told until you pass your driving test you don't learn to drive and the same goes for the electrical industry until you finish your apprenticeship and you are on your own do you learn how to be an electrician as the decision making comes down to you

Are you suggesting that there is no requirement to learn anything about electrical principles by trainee electricians?

 

[UNG]

Are you suggesting that there is no requirement to learn anything about electrical principles by trainee electricians?

You said domestic installers there is a limit on what can be taught in a few weeks before you are supposedly "qualified",

 

[nicebutdim]

You said domestic installers there is a limit on what can be taught in a few weeks before you are supposedly "qualified",

Indeed. This thread drifted so far that I can barely remember my own words.

 

[old man sparky]

A domestic installer is a term developed by governing bodies like NICEIC, and means Jack Poo when it comes to experience and qualifications. A company can be registered has an Approved Contractor, and under that umbrella send a young lad 1 year into his apprenticeship to cover work way out of his league. And before you say that shouldn't happen, we all know that, but real world it does. And often. If someone qualifies as an electrician but works on domestic installs all his life, then I call that a domestic electrician. But a fully qualified electrician, really needs to have commercial as well as domestic work under there belt. Part P has done no favours in this field, because you now have defined scope Domestic Installers which is ridiculous. The JIB have a better idea, grading a sparks on qualifications and ability. Not fool proof granted. But an NICEIC Approved contractor would mean nothing to me if I were for example a facilities manager. I would want to know what experience and quals the operative on the tools had before letting them loose on my electrics.

 

[Soi disant]

In order to qualify they must do exactly that. It may be that the required level of understanding is less than ideal, or less than you might like, but nonetheless those requirements are in place.

I guess it depends on what you mean by electrical principles.

To me that means things like Ohm's Law, why cables have to be certain sizes, why installation methods matter, the characteristics of OPDs, what bonding does and why and how it is not earthing, the nature of different supply types....

Not "the blue one goes here and the brown one there".

A domestic installer is a term developed by governing bodies like NICEIC, and means Jack Poo when it comes to experience and qualifications.

Experience is a factor in anything and everything, no matter how rigorous and comprehensive the qualifications-related training.

But regarding qualifications..

To register as a Domestic Installer two qualifications are generally required:

1. Current Level 3 Award in the Requirements for Electrical Installations (17th Edition), and either
2. Level 3 Award in the Initial Verification and Certification of Electrical Installations, or
3. Level 3 Award in Approving Electrical Work in Dwellings in Compliance with Building Regulations.

These qualifications can be achieved relatively quickly with a recommended learning period of around 100 hours in total. That could be as little as 3 weeks depending on centre requirements and prior experience.

Part P has done no favours in this field, because you now have defined scope Domestic Installers which is ridiculous.

As I said - DI status can be easily obtained by anyone who can demonstrate a very basic level of ability.

 

[nicebutdim]

I guess it depends on what you mean by electrical principles.

To me that means things like Ohm's Law, why cables have to be certain sizes, why installation methods matter, the characteristics of OPDs, what bonding does and why and how it is not earthing, the nature of different supply types....

Not "the blue one goes here and the brown one there".

Surely domestic installers are taught those very subjects?

Don't get me wrong; I'm not in favour of the whole domestic installer idea, but I'd imagine everything covered in your sentence to be central to their training.

 

[old man sparky]

Surely domestic installers are taught those very subjects?

Don't get me wrong; I'm not in favour of the whole domestic installer idea, but I'd imagine everything covered in your sentence to be central to their training.

Not "the blue one goes here and the brown one there" But if they know where the black and red ones go that could be an indication of experience, ? Very loosely, and tongue in cheek of course. ?

 

[Mike Johnson]

And the solid Green of course.

 

[Soi disant]

Surely domestic installers are taught those very subjects?

Don't get me wrong; I'm not in favour of the whole domestic installer idea, but I'd imagine everything covered in your sentence to be central to their training.

And yet we were recently treated to the spectacle here of someone with 2391 who, when told that a cable was undersized for the breaker he wanted to put it on, thought that the answer was an even higher rated breaker.

I wonder when he was required to demonstrate anything more than a very basic level of understanding?

And where are the topics I mentioned made central to the syllabi for 2382, 2391, or 2397?

 

[nicebutdim]

And yet we were recently treated to the spectacle here of someone with 2391 who, when told that a cable was undersized for the breaker he wanted to put it on, thought that the answer was an even higher rated breaker.

I wonder when he was required to demonstrate anything more than a very basic level of understanding?

And where are the topics I mentioned made central to the syllabi for 2382, 2391, or 2397?

I read that post, but using it as an example hardly addresses the question I asked. Are domestic installers taught basic electrical principles or not?

If we are to judge the abilities of every domestic installer on the basis of a question asked by one individual, we'd similarly have to jump to the idiotic conclusion that all electricians are bumbling fools on the basis of shoddy work carried out by any one individual. We're all adults here, so let's discuss this accordingly and not resort to hyperbole to avoid clarifying previous comments.

 

[LastManOnline]

But a fully qualified electrician, really needs to have commercial as well as domestic work under there belt.

Yes a rounded out apprenticeship should include both. Ironically I have always found domestic work to be more challenging (and more educational) than commercial work. Faultfinding skills tend to be honed in the domestic rather than the commercial field as offices etc rarely require more than lights, sockets and data. Whereas a modern house will have a much greater variety of electrical accessories be it showers, storage heating, solar panel heating, electric gates, heat pumps etc.
A house rewire for instance requires skills and experience not required in commercial work.

 

[old man sparky]

And yet we were recently treated to the spectacle here of someone with 2391 who, when told that a cable was undersized for the breaker he wanted to put it on, thought that the answer was an even higher rated breaker.

I wonder when he was required to demonstrate anything more than a very basic level of understanding?

And where are the topics I mentioned made central to the syllabi for 2382, 2391, or 2397?

Which just goes to show that quals alone can often be deceiving. If you have a good memory and pick something up parrot fashion you can scrape through with little concept or understanding of the practical implications. I have known some very qualified individuals, with lots of bits of paper, turn out to be a complete waste of time when it comes to truly understanding the concept behind designing, and the ifs what's and whys of why something is done, the way it is. Having said that, provided you DO understand what your doing. The 2391 isn't a bad qual as quals go. I remember doing the 236. Started as UEI 1&2 for the first couple of years. The 3rd year was part B. But then the C cert took me another two years of evening work. A lot of mates called it a day after the B. And I can understand why really, as a younger lad I lost out on a lot of overtime when earning the extra crust was needed. So those two evenings a week for the C, ended up costing me in other ways. But it was my apprenticeship and the people who mentored me, combined with the exam courses that really help you get to gaining experience.

 

[Soi disant]

I read that post, but using it as an example hardly addresses the question I asked. Are domestic installers taught basic electrical principles or not?

If we are to judge the abilities of every domestic installer on the basis of a question asked by one individual, we'd similarly have to jump to the idiotic conclusion that all electricians are bumbling fools on the basis of shoddy work carried out by any one individual. We're all adults here, so let's discuss this accordingly and not resort to hyperbole to avoid clarifying previous comments.

All true - one example does not make it typical.

Are domestic installers taught basic electrical principles or not?

I don't think so.

 

[nicebutdim]

All true - one example does not make it typical.

I don't think so.

This seems to be the crux of our issue.

You assume they aren't taught these basic principles and I assume they are. On that basis it would appear that we are both fools, regardless of what the actual facts are.

 

[old man sparky]

Yes a rounded out apprenticeship should include both. Ironically I have always found domestic work to be more challenging (and more educational) than commercial work. Faultfinding skills tend to be honed in the domestic rather than the commercial field as offices etc rarely require more than lights, sockets and data. Whereas a modern house will have a much greater variety of electrical accessories be it showers, storage heating, solar panel heating, electric gates, heat pumps etc.
A house rewire for instance requires skills and experience not required in commercial work.

Having been involved in NHS installs, Supermarkets, Garages, Data centres and the likes, as well as domestic, (although getting a bit too old for house bashing these days). I can assure you the complexities within commercial and industrial far exceed anything found in the domestic field. Both have there own disciplines and are constantly evolving. But to say commercial installs only involve lights sockets and data, would suggest a limited input. What about Composite panel install vs a consumer unit. No comparison to be fair. Or Generator and UPS installs in large data centres, mechanical heating and ventilation systems, again no comparison, Garage forecourts and the obvious hazards therein regarding such installs. The list goes on. Even a Supermarket has considerable installation work, way above and beyond that of the average home.
Yes House wiring should always be completed by someone with the right skill set, but I know for a fact, that someone who has only ever dealt with house rewires would be completely out of there depth in the commercial world if involved with all aspects of an installation therein. The reverse however is very different, although there are tips and tricks a commercial sparks would need to learn, it certainly wont take as long to pick up as the reverse. A commercial background gives you a wealth of skill sets, and always will.

 

[Soi disant]

This seems to be the crux of our issue.

You assume they aren't taught these basic principles and I assume they are. On that basis it would appear that we are both fools, regardless of what the actual facts are.

When you look at the qualifications required to be deemed a "Domestic Installer", and the topics they cover, there are none which include basic physics.

 

[nicebutdim]

When you look at the qualifications required to be deemed a "Domestic Installer", and the topics they cover, there are none which include basic physics.

"Basic electrical principles".

 

[LastManOnline]

But to say commercial installs only involve lights sockets and data, would suggest a limited input.

I did, nt mean to suggest that commercial installations were, nt sophisticated. In practice any project that is commercial or industrial comes complete with project management and drawings. Every "T" is crossed and every "i" is dotted. Basically we follow the drawings. Usually On a domestic project the management rests with the the electrical contractor himself who will liase directly with the client. Any issues that arise must be dealt with by the contractor. I, ve found that aspect of domestic work to be educational.

 

[i=p/u]

Your all talking rubbish ..

 

[i=p/u]

More info pete , yous would get tangled init.?

 

[DPG]

I think I'm missing something here.

 

[old man sparky]

Your all talking rubbish ..

Someone ALWAYS has to get technical. ?